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Off topic: 泰晤士(TIMES)四合院儿
Autor wątku: QHE
ysun  Identity Verified
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Lose face Apr 20

Fargoer wrote:

中国人动不动就说 “丢脸”,译成英文 “lose face” 好像已经是被接受了的。但是本地人是否都懂它的意思,就很难说了。

“Lose face” 的说法确实早就被英语世界接受。

http://www.ldoceonline.com/dictionary/lose-face
lose face
if you lose face, you do something which makes you seem weak, stupid etc, and which makes people respect you less

He doesn’t want to back down (=accept defeat in an argument) and risk losing face.

某些人在与人争辩时被驳得体无完肤、哑口无言,但为了保全自己的面子却死不认错。其实,越是这样,就越会丢脸。

http://www.phrases.org.uk/meanings/lose-face.html
Meaning
Lose face - Be humiliated; lose one's reputation.

Origin
'Lose face' began life in English as a translation of the Chinese phrase 'tiu lien'. That phrase may also be expressed in English as 'to suffer public disgrace', that is, to be unable to show one's face in public. In 1876, the consular official Sir Robert Hart published a series of essays - These from Land of Sinim - Essays on the Chinese question which included this observation:
"The country [China] begins to feel that Government consented to arrangements by which China has lost face; the officials have long been conscious that they are becoming ridiculous in the eyes of the people."


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David Lin  Identity Verified
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depends Apr 21

QHE wrote: Grammar

wherestip wrote:

Before the segment broke away for commercial, Steve Harvey had the last word, "Which do you prefer: I am broke, or I is rich? ".  


- “including him”, or “including I” ?


Haha, it's a funny one. The answer might be....

It depends really. "Is" you rich and funny?


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David Lin  Identity Verified
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Translation of 24 Solar Terms from Chinese into other languages Apr 21

QHE wrote: missed points

    David Lin wrote: An across-the-Atlantic linguistic issue

    The British use of "corn" to mean "grain" in general is key here.


      In fact, that was not the main point of what we were discussing.


Well, if it wasn't the main point, it was at least the re-starting point, as I understand it because you kindly brought our attention and explained in your discussion the consistent use of "corn" in the 24 Solar Terms for "Corn Rain" 穀雨, "Corn Forms" 小满 and "Corn on Ear" 芒種. And of course, you mentioned Britain's Corn Law in the 19th Century to support your reasoning. Well done!

QHE wrote:
David Lin wrote:
Not only that, today's widely-used Chinese lunisolar calendar is based on Shixian Calendar 时显历 developed by two European Jesuit missionaries Johann Schreck and Johann Adam Schall von Bell 汤若望神父 back in 1624 - 1644 when they lived in China, both of whom were multi-linguist scholars (e.g. They had German, Italian, Portuguese, French and English between them, not to mention Mandarin).

    《崇祯历书》
    https://zh.wikipedia.org/wiki/崇祯历书

    《崇祯历书》是大明崇祯年间为历法改革而编著的一部丛书,因由崇祯帝下令编纂故名[1];又称《時憲曆》,此曆法及其修訂版本由清朝初年源用至今。该书在崇祯二年(1629年)九月由礼部左侍郎徐光启成立曆局开始编写,到崇祯七年(1634年)十一月编完[2]。由于徐光启在1633年病逝,之后的编纂工作由李天经主持。

    编纂过程
    在编纂过程中,曆局聘请来华耶稣会的龙华民(意大利人,参与短期编制)、罗雅谷(葡萄牙人)、邓玉函(瑞士人,参与短期编制)、汤若望(日耳曼人)等人参与译书,编译或节译哥白尼、伽利略、第谷、开普勒等著名欧洲天文学家的著作[7]。从崇祯二年到崇祯七年陆续编成书。

    Xu Guangqi 徐光启
    http://www-history.mcs.st-and.ac.uk/Biographies/Xu_Guangqi.html


Your quotes are useful for us to understand other ancient key figures in the development of Shixian Calendar. Much appreciated. My post actually focuses on the possible translation of the 24 Solar Terms from Chinese into English, or possibly other European languages at the time, given the multi-linguistic talents of the European missionaries who were involved in developing the classical calendar.

Interestingly, I noticed in your links that Johann Adam Schall von Bell 汤若望, who managed to be trusted by the Chinese emperors in two dynasties -- Ming and Qing, was instrumental in the release of the Shixian Calendar in the early Qing Dynasty (in 1645), after editing out many chapters of the calendar which he helped to complete in Ming Dynasty, while 徐光啟 passed away in 1633 and Ming Dynasty soon collapsed subsequently. See the quote below.

《崇祯历书》在1634年编完之后并没有立即颁行新历。新历的优劣之争一直持续了10年。在《明史·曆志》中记录了发生过的8次中西天文学的较量,包括日食、月食、木星、水星、火星的运动[1],最后崇祯帝“已深知西法之密”[3],并在崇祯十六年(1643年)八月下定颁布新历的决心,但颁行《崇祯历书》的命令还没有实施,明朝就已灭亡。之后由留在北京城中的汤若望删改《崇祯历书》至103卷,并由顺治帝将其更名为《西洋新法历书》,於順治二年(公元1645年)頒行。其中100卷本《西洋新法历书》被收入《四库全书》,但因避乾隆(弘曆)讳,易名为《西洋新法算书》。


QHE wrote:
David Lin wrote:
Today, the British English version has helped the understanding of the non-Chinese speakers in the UNESCO screening committee when they approved the 24 Solar Terms to become the UN World Intangible Cultural Heritage late last year.


    http://www.unesco.org/culture/ich/en/decisions/11.COM/10.B.6
    Nomination file no. 00647 / Dossier de candidature n° 00647

    B.1. Name of the element in English or French
    The Twenty-Four Solar Terms, knowledge of time and practices developed in China through observation of the sun’s annual motion

    Les vingt-quatre périodes solaires, la connaissance du temps et les pratiques développées en Chine à travers l’observation du mouvement annuel du soleil


    B.2. Name of the element in the language and script of the community concerned,
    if applicable
    二十四节气——中国人通过观察太阳周年运动而形成的时间知识体系及其实践


    B.3. Other name(s) of the element, if any
    The Twenty-four Solar Terms is also commonly known as the Twenty-four Solar Terms in Chinese Agricultural Calendar. The solar terms are: Beginning of Spring, Rain Water, Insects Awakening, Spring Equinox, Fresh Green, Grain Rain, Beginning of Summer, Lesser Fullness, Grain in Ear, Summer Solstice, Lesser Heat, Greater Heat, Beginning of Autumn, End of Heat, White Dew, Autumnal Equinox, Cold Dew, First Frost, Beginning of Winter, Light Snow, Heavy Snow, Winter Solstice, Lesser Cold, and Greater Cold.



Useful information. It shows how comprehensive the UNESCO screening procedure is as it includes other names available as well -- Grain Rain, Lesser Fullness and Grain in Ear. It proves again they aren't Chinglish as you suggested earlier.

Certainly English and French were used in the UNESCO procedure, as the official languages of UN are English, French, Chinese, Russian, Spanish and Arabic. I wonder who translated the 24 Solar Terms into Spanish, French, Russian and Arabic.

[Edited at 2017-04-21 10:00 GMT]


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ysun  Identity Verified
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Grammar Apr 21

David Lin wrote:

People living in Britain (including I) would not engage in such a discussion because ...

IMHO, it is incorrect to say "People living in Britain (including I) ...". It should be "People living in Britain (including me) ..." or "People living in Britain (me included) ..."

Please correct me if I am wrong.


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Jianhong Jane Wang  Identity Verified
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Agree Apr 21

ysun wrote:

David Lin wrote:

People living in Britain (including I) would not engage in such a discussion because ...

IMHO, it is incorrect to say "People living in Britain (including I) ...". It should be "People living in Britain (including me) ..." or "People living in Britain (me included) ..."

Please correct me if I am wrong.


I would say 'People living in Britain, including me, would not engage...'. In real life, I have heard people say 'myself included' ('People living in Britain, myself included, would not engage...').

"Including" must take an object as a preposition.

See discussions on this page: https://english.stackexchange.com/questions/155140/all-of-us-including-me-or-i


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wherestip  Identity Verified
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Hypercorrection ;-) Apr 21

https://www.merriam-webster.com/words-at-play/do-you-feel-bad-or-feel-badly



Is It 'Feel Bad' or 'Feel Badly'?
We feel good about answering this question


"I feel so badly about correcting their grammar."

OR WAIT: "I feel so bad about correcting their grammar."

Which one is it? Feel is a verb, so shouldn't what comes after it be—and look like—an adverb?

The answer is: no.

feel-bad
Like 'be' or 'look', 'feel' is a linking verb. That means that "I feel bad" is correct—just like "I feel sad" (rather than "I feel sadly") or "that looks delicious" (rather than "that looks deliciously").

Feel is a particular kind of verb called a linking verb. (Another term for linking verb is copula or copulative verb.) Linking verbs are not like regular action verbs. They function only to connect the subject of a sentence or clause with words that describe or identify that subject. And those words are either adjectives (or adjective phrases) or nouns (or noun phrases).

There are a number of linking verbs in English, among them be, become, seem, and all of the sensory verbs: smell, look, taste, sound, and feel. And while each of these can also be used as an action verb, it's easy to tell when they're being used as linking verbs, as in these cases involving the sensory linking verbs:

Those pies smell delicious. NOT: Those pies smell deliciously.

The pies look perfect. NOT: The pies look perfectly.

The crust doesn't taste too sweet. NOT: The crust doesn't taste too sweetly.

Their chewing sounds loud. NOT: Their chewing sounds loudly.

I feel bad that you didn't get any pie. NOT: I feel badly that you didn't get any pie.

Except let's stop at that last one again because, unlike the other "NOT" versions, we do, in fact, hear and read it—and often from people who know their way around an English sentence.

The common wisdom is that it's a case of "hypercorrection": we apply a rule of grammar in a situation that isn't quite the right one, and the result is a nonstandard linguistic form or construction. In this particular case, people who have learned to favor "it hurt badly" over "it hurt bad," and "need it badly" over "need it bad," use "feel badly" because they assume it is similarly superior to "feel bad."

If this is the case, though, why don't we also hear "I feel sadly" or "I feel angrily"? And why don't we also hear constructions like "smell awfully" and "look deliciously"?

As we said above, most linking verbs can also be used as regular old action verbs. Pies look delicious (where look is a linking verb), but we can also look at pies (where look is an action verb). Feel can also be an action verb, and when it's functioning as an action verb it's commonly followed by an adverb:

I feel strongly that the pies should be shared equally.

And that's where the goofy grammarian's joke about people who feel badly being unable to experience tactile sensations or being capable only of apathy comes from.

But some people make a considered distinction between feel bad and feel badly, choosing feel bad when feel is about physical health and feel badly when feel is about an emotional state. Others switch them with just as much intention. These uses are established enough that some dictionaries (including Merriam-Webster Unabridged) cover badly as an adjective; it is, after all, following a linking verb.

There was a time, mostly in the 19th century and mostly because bad was thought to only mean "somewhat evil," that people were advised to use feel badly for both physical health and emotional states. Modern advisers recommend feel bad in both contexts.

Interestingly, the same folks typically approve the use of feel well to describe one's health and feel good to sing along to James Brown. Feel good is also approved for both. Well and good are both adjectives in these cases. Which is, of course, all well and good.





http://www.proz.com/post/1498312#1498312

Grammar Girl Celebrity Smack Down Apr 30, 2010

... bad versus badly

此话题还是贴到这儿来.

这个链接还有 podcast 可听, 且包括 Donald Trump 更正 Cyndi Lauper 的一小段实况录音 ...

http://www.quickanddirtytips.com/education/grammar/bad-versus-badly



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wherestip  Identity Verified
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Definition of "Hypercorrection" Apr 21

http://www.dictionary.com/browse/hypercorrection?s=t


hypercorrection
noun, Linguistics.
1.
the substitution, in an inappropriate context, of a pronunciation, grammatical form, or usage thought by the speaker or writer to be appropriate, resulting usually from overgeneralizing in an effort to replace seemingly incorrect forms with correct ones, as the substitution of between you and I for between you and me, by analogy with you and I as the subject of a sentence.

hypercorrection
noun
1.
a mistaken correction to text or speech made through a desire to avoid nonstandard pronunciation or grammar: ``between you and I'' is a hypercorrection of ``between you and me''


https://www.merriam-webster.com/dictionary/hypercorrect


Definition of hypercorrect
:  of, relating to, or characterized by the production of a nonstandard linguistic form or construction on the basis of a false analogy (as “badly” in “my eyes have gone badly”)


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ysun  Identity Verified
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Agree Apr 22

Jianhong Jane Wang wrote:

I would say 'People living in Britain, including me, would not engage...'.

"Including" must take an object as a preposition.

Thanks for sharing your opinion and the link! I think your sentence is more formal.

Anyway, the phrase “including I” is definitely wrong.

http://www.ldoceonline.com/dictionary/including
including preposition
• There'll be eighteen people at the party, including you and me.



[Edited at 2017-04-22 21:01 GMT]


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QHE
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NOWY TEMAT
Where is the proof? Apr 22

David Lin wrote:

Useful information. It shows how comprehensive the UNESCO screening procedure is as it includes other names available as well -- Grain Rain, Lesser Fullness and Grain in Ear. It proves again they aren't Chinglish as you suggested earlier.


http://www.unesco.org/culture/ich/en/decisions/11.COM/10.B.6

The Committee
    1. Takes note that China has nominated the Twenty-Four Solar Terms, knowledge in China of time and practices developed through observation of the sun’s annual motion (No. 00647) for inscription...

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wherestip  Identity Verified
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New Lawn in Dormancy :D Apr 23



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ysun  Identity Verified
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How about Bearded Grain Apr 24

Fargoer wrote:

QHE wrote:
另外我觉得 "Grain in Ear" 和 "Corn on Ear" 这两个 Chinglish 译文中,"Grain in Ear" 会容易造成更多误解。


都是这个“芒”字惹的祸。毕竟有芒的作物就是小麦、大麦、青稞、稻子这么几种。中文本身就有这许许多多的不同解释,太难为翻译了。

不过,“芒种”一词还可作另一种解释:稻麦类谷物的概称。见《周禮·地官·稻人》:“澤草所生。種之芒種。鄭司農云。芒種、稻麥也。” 由此观之,“芒种”和“忙种”就有了互通的桥。

[修改时间: 2017-04-09 04:18 GMT]

汉典
http://www.zdic.net/c/2/d3/201991.htm
◎ 芒种 Mángzhòng
[Bearded Grain] 二十四节气之一, 在6月5、6或7日

康熙字典
http://www.zdic.net/z/22/kx/8292.htm

《周禮·地官·稻人》澤草所生,種之芒種。《註》芒種,稻麥也。

Correlative Cosmology in Chinese Medicine:
The 12 Organ Systems and their Relationship to the 12 Months of the Year, the 24 Seasonal Nodes (jieqi), and the 72 Material Manifestations
https://classicalchinesemedicine.org/wp-content/uploads/2010/04/fruehauf_correlativecosmo.pdf
Mangzhong 芒種 (Bearded Grain)

Heiner Fruehauf
https://nunm.edu/faculty/heiner-fruehauf-phd-lac/


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wherestip  Identity Verified
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Discovery of the 2nd parchment manuscript of the Declaration of Independence Apr 24

http://www.proz.com/post/2317357#2317357
Where is the original Declaration of Independence kept?



http://www.cnn.com/2017/04/24/world/declaration-of-independence-england-trnd/index.html

Second copy of Declaration of Independence discovered
By Sophie Lewis, CNN

Updated 2:31 PM ET, Mon April 24, 2017




The Sussex Declaration is currently housed at the West Sussex Record Office in the UK.

(CNN)A second parchment copy of the Declaration of Independence has been found. In England, of all places.

It's a remarkable discovery, because the only other parchment manuscript copy of the historic document is housed behind glass at the National Archives in Washington, DC.

You see, most copies of the Declaration of Independence are just that -- copies. They are facsimiles of the one housed in the National Archives, which is called the Matlack Declaration and regarded as the official document.




[Edited at 2017-04-25 13:22 GMT]


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Fargoer
Kanada
Local time: 17:58
angielski > chiński
回归本初 Apr 25

ysun wrote:
 
 Mangzhong 芒種 (Bearded Grain)



如果没看到过前面的那些译法,让我译没准就这样译了。


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wherestip  Identity Verified
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带芒的谷物 Apr 25



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David Lin  Identity Verified
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Chinglish or English? Apr 25

QHE wrote:

David Lin wrote:

Useful information. It shows how comprehensive the UNESCO screening procedure is as it includes other names available as well -- Grain Rain, Lesser Fullness and Grain in Ear. It proves again they aren't Chinglish as you suggested earlier.


http://www.unesco.org/culture/ich/en/decisions/11.COM/10.B.6

The Committee
    1. Takes note that China has nominated the Twenty-Four Solar Terms, knowledge in China of time and practices developed through observation of the sun’s annual motion (No. 00647) for inscription...


The term "corn on ear" is more British English than Chinglish, because British English has its original form ear of corn (barley, wheat and rye) as a botanical term. https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Ear_(botany) "Grain in ear" is at best the "variation" known or used by mostly non-British English users, probably North American English users, because the meaning of "grain" is clearer to them than "corn" which perhaps means just "maize" in the North American context.

I wrote something related to this issue on 17 April, as follows:

The source of the "24 Solar Terms" comes from the Hong Kong Observatory, as cited by QHE. This reaffirms the use of "corn" to be in British English only due to the city's former British colony background, rather than the North American usage. It's another typical context dictating usage case.


Collins Dictionary defines "Chinglish" as "English spoken by the Chinese or localized in China."
https://www.collinsdictionary.com/submission/2886/Chinglish(N)

A writer in a teachers' network puts it this way, "The term "Chinglish" is commonly applied to ungrammatical or nonsensical English in Chinese contexts, and may have pejorative or deprecating connotations."
https://writingxmu.wikispaces.com/Chinglish

I doubt very much "corn on ear", or its variation "grain in ear", is English spoken by the Chinese or with any deprecating connotations.

After the European missionary scholars of the 17th Century arrived in China and studied the Solar Terms, they might have perhaps translated these classical Chinese terms into European languages including British English, when they shared the new knowledge gained in China with the people of their countries of origin.

If the translations were in Chinglish, the Europeans would have difficulty to understand these Chinese terms. So would the UNESCO screening committee.

So, in my view, it's just simple common sense with a historical background.


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