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Who is the "copyright owner" of translation texts?
Thread poster: MariusV
RobinB
RobinB  Identity Verified
United States
Local time: 08:28
German to English
Different issues Feb 20, 2015

Michael Wetzel wrote: And you can't sell your copyright (status as "author" of IP) except, under special circumstances, in the US. What we sell when we sell translations that fall under copyright protection are "Verwertungsrechte" - even if no one involved understands that and it does not explicitly show up in a contract.


Please remember that “copyright” here in the EU does consist of two elements: moral rights and economic rights. While moral rights cannot be assigned, economic rights almost always are assigned, whether expressly or implicitly. So translators certainly do assign the "economic rights" component of copyright when they deliver a translation to their client. And that’s what really matters.

That is important, among other things, for determining the VAT rate and for the question of whether or not a translator qualifies for/is required to insure themselves through the Künstlersozialkasse (the question of whether or not a given translator is a "Publizist").


For the vast majority of translations, the standard rate of VAT applies. And the question of whether or not a translator qualifies for admission to the dreaded KSK depends on the specific type of texts they translate most of the time, not on whether the translations enjoy copyright protection.


 
MariusV
MariusV  Identity Verified
Lithuania
Local time: 15:28
English to Lithuanian
+ ...
TOPIC STARTER
from a simplistic point of view Feb 20, 2015

Well, I really agree that the end client cannot be responsible (at least should not be) for the "copyright issues"...What can the end client do, or can it know anything about the "bilateral business issues" between the translation agency and their translators? They just ordered a job, received it done as agreed, sent the payment to the agency as agreed...From the elementary point of view there is no "guilt" of the end client that they used the product in whatever legal way they wanted and for wh... See more
Well, I really agree that the end client cannot be responsible (at least should not be) for the "copyright issues"...What can the end client do, or can it know anything about the "bilateral business issues" between the translation agency and their translators? They just ordered a job, received it done as agreed, sent the payment to the agency as agreed...From the elementary point of view there is no "guilt" of the end client that they used the product in whatever legal way they wanted and for which they paid and fulfilled all and any other obligations to THEIR service provider. So, actually, the copyright disputes shall be between the translator and the agency. Because, in fact, the agency sold the "copyrighted product" (belonging to the translator) to their client...And, as long as there were no "specific agreements" regarding this, then all goes as it is "written in the laws"...And of course, laws shall be complicated even for a simple situation like this. Otherwise no one would ever need any lawyers, courts of law, and lawyers and judges would be jobless...Collapse


 
Steven Segaert
Steven Segaert
Estonia
Local time: 15:28
Member (2012)
English to Dutch
+ ...
(Un)knowingly doing something wrong Feb 20, 2015

If you let the end client know that they are using materials for which you hold the copyright, you can ask them to either stop using them or to pay you for them. You can even make a marketing opportunity out of it (maybe they have more materials to be translated). You can't ask them for money for use they have made in good faith.

The economic elements of IPR are not automatically transferred at delivery. There is no legal basis to state that. They can be transferred by contractual p
... See more
If you let the end client know that they are using materials for which you hold the copyright, you can ask them to either stop using them or to pay you for them. You can even make a marketing opportunity out of it (maybe they have more materials to be translated). You can't ask them for money for use they have made in good faith.

The economic elements of IPR are not automatically transferred at delivery. There is no legal basis to state that. They can be transferred by contractual provision, or by the fact that the work has been done, delivered, and was paid for (if it is clear from the description or the circumstances of the job that the translation was meant to be used or passed on).

I have no idea on what basis contacting an end client could possibly constitute a criminal offence, as was stated earlier in this thread. Would love to see a law to that effect.
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LilianNekipelov
LilianNekipelov  Identity Verified
United States
Local time: 09:28
Russian to English
+ ...
The translator is the owner of the copyright Feb 21, 2015

unless he or she transferred it to anyone for remuneration.

 
Samuel Murray
Samuel Murray  Identity Verified
Netherlands
Local time: 14:28
Member (2006)
English to Afrikaans
+ ...
@Lilian Feb 21, 2015

LilianNekipelov wrote:
The translator is the owner of the copyright ... unless he or she transferred it to anyone for remuneration.


I'm sure he or she can also transfer it without remuneration.


 
LilianNekipelov
LilianNekipelov  Identity Verified
United States
Local time: 09:28
Russian to English
+ ...
Unfortunately you are wrong. Feb 21, 2015

Łukasz Gos-Furmankiewicz wrote:

Copyrights may vest in employers rather than employees, workers commissioned under mandates, hired-work contracts etc., depending on the jurisdiction. In B2B, I'd expect the contractor and not the client to have the copyright, unless specific provisions are put in place to make sure the copyright does vest in the contractor.


Translator holds all the copyrights to the translation, unless there is a different agreement, and he or she transferred the rights, which most don't do. They cannot even edit the text or change anything without the translator's consent, not to mention publish, or use in any way.

[Edited at 2015-02-21 14:59 GMT]


 
LilianNekipelov
LilianNekipelov  Identity Verified
United States
Local time: 09:28
Russian to English
+ ...
Why would they? Feb 21, 2015

Samuel Murray wrote:

LilianNekipelov wrote:
The translator is the owner of the copyright ... unless he or she transferred it to anyone for remuneration.


I'm sure he or she can also transfer it without remuneration.



Unless it was some type of a pro bono work. You should definitely sue the agency, if they did not pay you. in some countries there are pro bono legal services which might be able to help you. I think there are enough scammers in our industry. What's going on is really deplorable.

[Edited at 2015-02-21 15:07 GMT]


 
MariusV
MariusV  Identity Verified
Lithuania
Local time: 15:28
English to Lithuanian
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TOPIC STARTER
one more thought Feb 21, 2015

In this particular case, the end client is a UK governmental institution - a City Council (they had an agreement for provision of translation services with that agency, and, after my letter to the Council, they investigated this matter seriously and informed that they terminated their agreement with that agency). And, usually, governmental institutions should have very detailed agreements with their suppliers, including such issues as confidentiality, copyright, etc. That means that the Council ... See more
In this particular case, the end client is a UK governmental institution - a City Council (they had an agreement for provision of translation services with that agency, and, after my letter to the Council, they investigated this matter seriously and informed that they terminated their agreement with that agency). And, usually, governmental institutions should have very detailed agreements with their suppliers, including such issues as confidentiality, copyright, etc. That means that the Council protected itself from any related claims on the basis of this Agreement, and if someone raises copyright claims to them, they can "forward" these to their supplier, I think...





[Edited at 2015-02-21 19:14 GMT]
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Steven Segaert
Steven Segaert
Estonia
Local time: 15:28
Member (2012)
English to Dutch
+ ...
Agreements with who? Feb 21, 2015

MariusV wrote:

And, usually, governmental institutions should have very detailed agreements with their suppliers, including such issues as confidentiality, copyright, etc. That means that the Council protected itself from any related claims on the basis of this Agreement (...)



[Edited at 2015-02-21 19:14 GMT]


The contract between the end client and the translation agency is none of your business. The end client can't hold it against you.

Just as the buyer of a car that was stolen from you can't keep your car, simply because they have a good contract with the thief.

Once the end client is aware that you have never transferred the copyright to your translation, the either need to stop using it, or pay you for using it. The fact that they then have a contractual claim against the translation agency is irrelevant as far as you are concerned.

Send them a "Cease & Desist Letter", and at the same time offer them to buy the copyright from you.


 
MariusV
MariusV  Identity Verified
Lithuania
Local time: 15:28
English to Lithuanian
+ ...
TOPIC STARTER
... Feb 21, 2015

Steven, you just misunderstood me. It is more than obvious that the agreement between the agency and the city council for the provision of services is "not my business". But I wanted to tell that such agreements, as a rule, contain lots of provisions, including confidentiality, copyright, etc. clauses, and usually, very detailed ones where the end client protects itself from almost everything possible and any possible liabilities and responsibilities, except the timely payment for the work done ... See more
Steven, you just misunderstood me. It is more than obvious that the agreement between the agency and the city council for the provision of services is "not my business". But I wanted to tell that such agreements, as a rule, contain lots of provisions, including confidentiality, copyright, etc. clauses, and usually, very detailed ones where the end client protects itself from almost everything possible and any possible liabilities and responsibilities, except the timely payment for the work done in due time and quality. Because how (formally, and in real life) they can be responsible for the activities and actions of their vendor?

But the interesting (and good thing for me) is that it would be possible to have a proof that the materials were used by the institution (these were the materials for their social care division), and, apart from the claim to the agency for money, and court expenses, I think I could try adding a claim for the breach of my copyright (if, following the UK laws, an unpaid translator can be considered the copyright owner of the translations)...
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Daryo
Daryo
United Kingdom
Local time: 13:28
Serbian to English
+ ...
what have they done wrong? Feb 22, 2015

Chris S wrote:

You're in a much more difficult position than I realised, but surely English law is flexible enough to deal with an obvious scam like that?

It doesn't seem right to sue the end-client though - what have they done wrong?


what have they done wrong?

the same "wrong" that many companies are doing when employing agencies in other fields.

Pretending that everything is nice and dandy just because the agency signed a contract that says so, while anyone with a modicum of knowledge of that market should know that it could not be. [services supplied under unrealistic conditions] (of course it does not happen all the time, but it does happen).

Selecting an agency that offers low rates because it has no intention of ever paying those doing the actual work IS the responsibility (at least a moral one, if not legal) of those selecting it, particularly IF or WHEN they became aware of it - so I don't see any reason for not making the end client aware.

[Edited at 2015-02-22 14:52 GMT]

[Edited at 2015-02-22 15:02 GMT]


 
Soonthon LUPKITARO(Ph.D.)
Soonthon LUPKITARO(Ph.D.)  Identity Verified
Thailand
Local time: 20:28
English to Thai
+ ...
Bilateral contract Jun 15, 2017

Now I have a litigation with one of the biggest translation agencies, located in New York, on non-payment to translation of about USD 10,000. Other than the hire for work clause, I defend with the translation copyrights.
Thai and US copyrights laws say that copyrights can be transferred from the translator to the client. This clause should be read carefully. The translation job agreement is a bilateral contract or exchange of payment with ownership or copyrights.
In case the intere
... See more
Now I have a litigation with one of the biggest translation agencies, located in New York, on non-payment to translation of about USD 10,000. Other than the hire for work clause, I defend with the translation copyrights.
Thai and US copyrights laws say that copyrights can be transferred from the translator to the client. This clause should be read carefully. The translation job agreement is a bilateral contract or exchange of payment with ownership or copyrights.
In case the interest on payment delay is prohibited, this clause is also against the good and fair social practice [many supreme court judgments already determine this]. This is also in the litigation case above (now on-going in Thailand).
In the case above, I defend that I still withhold the copyrights since the payment is not fully made as having been promised.

I do not want translators to misapprehend this very critical clause to protect our professionalism.

Dr. Soonthon Lupkitaro
Bangkok, Thailand
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Who is the "copyright owner" of translation texts?







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