| Pages in topic: < [1 2 3 4 5 6 7 8 9 10] > | Can we please do away with unreasonable requests from outsourcers? Thread poster: Bernhard Sulzer
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Bernhard Sulzer 
United States
Local time: 16:33
English to German
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TOPIC STARTER | Regarding negotiations etc. | Jan 6, 2017 |
Samuel Murray wrote:
After all the negotiations, previewing of files, signing of NDAs etc, the thing that usually makes or breaks the deal is the rate. No matter how sweet these other things are, if the rate is not acceptable, the job does not go through. Therefore it makes perfect sense from a time management perspective to talk about rates as soon as possible in the interaction with a client/translator. An initially proposed rate is not a binding quote, after all.
But as I tried to relay, it isn't good for us when the impression continues for many that these kinds of jobs are acceptable or that they have to rush to accept them to get any kind of job. The translator should be the one first suggesting a rate. If that is too much to ask, oh well...
Samuel Murray wrote:
When we negotiate with humans in person, ...
I don't think there is much negotiating going on. It's a recurring situation, every day: same bottom rates, same type of translator accepting or possibly even undercutting those rates
| | | | Bernhard Sulzer
United States
Local time: 16:33
English to German
+ ...
TOPIC STARTER | Thank you for your input | Jan 6, 2017 |
Thank you everybody for your input! Mine reflects one opinion and it's good to hear all of yours.
| | | | | Unreasonable waste of time | Jan 6, 2017 |
Bernhard Sulzer wrote:
With the rate/rate-range option taken away, the translator must make the effort to think about his/her proposal or at least Proz.com doesn't publicly display and indirectly support the cheap rates/jobs - a clear image boost for them and me (indirectly).
Now that should be reasonable.
No, that would be pure waste of time for a professional translator. To spend time on preparing a solid quote only to be refused on the grounds of rates is a waste of time.
Some agencies simply won't pay $0.1, because they work in a segment where their forte (sorry, no better word) is being cheap. They work with end clients who are not big players in their fields, either, and are used to average quality. I know some agencies like that - they work with part-time translators, for example bankers, whose target language skill is just OK, but not exquisite, who simply don't have the skill to research terms even in their own field of specialization, because, with a full time job, they can't dedicate the time and their risk is not as high, anyway, they have a job they won't lose with an average or poor translation, they are not so motivated to be the best in their fields of specialization.
And then there are agencies who, of course, would like to save money where they can, and use CAT tools to pretranslate previously translated parts, but refuse to compromise on quality and will gladly pay what they think are high rates, if you are so good that your quality, professionalism and specialization simply seduce them. I know agencies like that, as well.
I fully agree with Siegfried: you alone are responsible for your image. Your image is based on your skills. It is very difficult for a "general" translator, who is willing to work in several very specialized fields, to impress - what exactly is his/her strength? Can he really claim that he has a thorough understanding of technology AND law AND finance? Doesn't top-notch financial translator (replace with any other field of specialism) sound much more reasonable than just top-notch translator?
All the successful translators I know are specialized translators. Of course, there are fantastic ones who produce excellent translations in general, more accessible fields, but they are not as successful.
Language skills alone will not really impress a bank/law office/manufacturer/media company, etc. - your great knowledge of their specific field + your excellent language skills + professionalism in managing your projects will. And then they accept whatever reasonable price you're asking.
[Edited at 2017-01-06 14:31 GMT]
| | | | | Proz can't help it | Jan 6, 2017 |
Bernhard Sulzer wrote: Like I said, Don't let posters post rates. Even though they are ignored by many, many will rush to simply accept them because it's the fastest thing to do to get the job. A translator should be the one first suggesting a rate. For fairly reasonable rates for professional services, post a link to the proz.com rates page: check out the standard rates there: http://search.proz.com/?sp=pfe/rates Have posters fill out a new form instead where they can specify what they want without the demands for rock bottom rates, best rate(and the like) and ridiculous payment terms. With the rate/rate-range option taken away, the translator must make the effort to think about his/her proposal or at least Proz.com doesn't publicly display and indirectly support the cheap rates/jobs - a clear image boost for them and me (indirectly). Now that should be reasonable.
The Internet makes it global.
So I see a picture online of a brand new Tata Nano with the price on the windshield. It was taken at a dealership in New Delhi.
Incidentally, I have just landed in, say, Düsseldorf, where I am expected to stay for a while for any reason, and I have no wheels! So I do the math, convert those rupees into euros, withdraw that money from an ATM, and stride into a domestic car dealership. Mercedes, Audi, BMW, VW, it doesn't matter. I show them that cash, and tell them I want to buy a car. They tell me that for that amount I could buy a Trabant. In fact, they have a Trabi in their junk yard and, if I take it away, they won't want any money at all. They might even buy me some schnaps to celebrate if I succeed in moving it.
Your plea would be for Proz to refrain from publishing things like the picture with the Tata Nano in New Delhi showing its price in rupees.
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Bernhard Sulzer
United States
Local time: 16:33
English to German
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TOPIC STARTER | A Mercedes for the price of a Trabi | Jan 6, 2017 |
José Henrique Lamensdorf wrote: Bernhard Sulzer wrote: Like I said, Don't let posters post rates. Even though they are ignored by many, many will rush to simply accept them because it's the fastest thing to do to get the job. A translator should be the one first suggesting a rate. For fairly reasonable rates for professional services, post a link to the proz.com rates page: check out the standard rates there: http://search.proz.com/?sp=pfe/rates Have posters fill out a new form instead where they can specify what they want without the demands for rock bottom rates, best rate(and the like) and ridiculous payment terms. With the rate/rate-range option taken away, the translator must make the effort to think about his/her proposal or at least Proz.com doesn't publicly display and indirectly support the cheap rates/jobs - a clear image boost for them and me (indirectly). Now that should be reasonable. The Internet makes it global. So I see a picture online of a brand new Tata Nano with the price on the windshield. It was taken at a dealership in New Delhi. Incidentally, I have just landed in, say, Düsseldorf, where I am expected to stay for a while for any reason, and I have no wheels! So I do the math, convert those rupees into euros, withdraw that money from an ATM, and stride into a domestic car dealership. Mercedes, Audi, BMW, VW, it doesn't matter. I show them that cash, and tell them I want to buy a car. They tell me that for that amount I could buy a Trabant. In fact, they have a Trabi in their junk yard and, if I take it away, they won't want any money at all. They might even buy me some schnaps to celebrate if I succeed in moving it. Your plea would be for Proz to refrain from publishing things like the picture with the Tata Nano in New Delhi showing its price in rupees.
That is an over-simplification. Your car is, in our realm, let's say a translation from English to German. The provider of this translation will most likely live in an English- or German-speaking country. But heck, he might live in India. But he is going to compete with other translators in the same language combination. Wherever they live. Are you suggesting he should charge 5 Cents for his work because he can beat out anyone and live happily ever after in India? (By the way, I am no too concerned about German- or English-speaking translators living in India).
But who is buying the translation? A guy living in India? Well okay, for whatever reason. That doesn't mean he isn't buying the translation on the global market. You think that the translator will charge the guy/agency from India significantly less than he does let's say someone from Germany? Or worse, simply accept 5 Cents per word as payment? Well, I wouldn't. I offer my services to anyone from anywhere over the internet. For this type of service, we all have reasonable rates/rate ranges that were established a long time ago, for me almost 20 years now, and I am not going to follow examples on job boards. But others might and ... you get the big picture.
But here's the real problem. It's not just outsourcers from traditionally low-cost countries that demand these rates and, based on my review of job boards,find willing takers, very likely also not from low-cost countries. No. They come from England, from the US, from Germany and other countries as well. So the reality with your example is that there are people (translators) in Germany that ARE WILLING to sell anyone/agencies from anywhere a Mercedes (a good translation) for the price of a Trabi. Because they think they have to or because they just grab whatever they can get in the bidding process.
(edited/add-on): And even if you argue that these are probably all poor translations, I find that beside the point. These practices continue - and I am not willing to stick my head in the sand and say it will never affect my bottom line.
[Edited at 2017-01-06 15:32 GMT]
| | | | | You got my point! | Jan 6, 2017 |
Bernhard Sulzer wrote:
That is an over-simplification. Your car is, in our realm, let's say a translation from English to German. The provider of this translation will most likely live in an English- or German-speaking country. But heck, he might live in India. But he is going to compete with other translators in the same language combination. Wherever they live. Are you suggesting he should charge 5 Cents for his work because he can beat out anyone and live happily ever after in India? (By the way, I am no too concerned about German- or English-speaking translators living in India).
But who is buying the translation? A guy living in India? Well okay, for whatever reason. That doesn't mean he isn't buying the translation on the global market. You think that the translator will charge the guy/agency from India significantly less than he does let's say someone from Germany? Or worse, simply accept 5 Cents per word as payment? Well, I wouldn't. I offer my services to anyone from anywhere over the internet. For this type of service, we all have reasonable rates/rate ranges that were established a long time ago, for me almost 20 years now, and I am not going to follow examples on job boards. But others might and ... you get the big picture.
But here's the real problem. It's not just outsourcers from traditionally low-cost countries that demand these rates and, based on my review of job boards,find willing takers, very likely also not from low-cost countries. No. They come from England, from the US, from Germany and other countries as well. So the reality with your example is that there are people (translators) in Germany that ARE WILLING to sell anyone/agencies from anywhere a Mercedes (a good translation) for the price of a Trabi. Because they think they have to or because they just grab whatever they can get in the bidding process.
Bernhard, you and I know that the likelihood of finding a good EN>DE or EN>PT in India is very small, if any. We also know that the average rates for EN>DE and EN>PT, though possibly different, are much higher than EN>HI.
However this is not published anywhere. AFAIK the Proz Community Rates page is not regularly updated by users/members, so it cannot be considered a reliable and current source.
Bottom line is that nobody knows how much a translation should cost, taking into account ALL the variables involved. Hence these bottom-feeders are offering that Tata-Nano-worth wad of euros, trying to buy a Mercedes in Germany. What they don't know is that they'll end up receiving the Trabi from the junk yard. As it will be delivered via e-mail or cloud, which takes any junk, they'll only know it when they put together those two wires (the ignition switch is long gone) and try to start the engine.
We can only hope that they live and learn something from life.
Hiding the Tata's price in New Delhi will not teach them anything.
| | | | Bernhard Sulzer
United States
Local time: 16:33
English to German
+ ...
TOPIC STARTER
José Henrique Lamensdorf wrote:
...
Bottom line is that nobody knows how much a translation should cost, taking into account ALL the variables involved. Hence these bottom-feeders are offering that Tata-Nano-worth wad of euros, trying to buy a Mercedes in Germany. What they don't know is that they'll end up receiving the Trabi from the junk yard. As it will be delivered via e-mail or cloud, which takes any junk, they'll only know it when they put together those two wires (the ignition switch is long gone) and try to start the engine.
We can only hope that they live and learn something from life.
Hiding the Tata's price in New Delhi will not teach them anything.
I had added on another sentence after you copied my reply.
Here it is:
And even if you argue that these are probably all poor translations, I find that beside the point. These practices continue - and I am not willing to stick my head in the sand and say it will never affect my bottom line.
| | | | Samuel Murray
Netherlands
Local time: 22:33
Member (2006)
English to Afrikaans
+ ...
| You don't know that | Jan 6, 2017 |
Bernhard Sulzer wrote:
It's a recurring situation, every day: same bottom rates, same type of translator accepting...
Sorry, but no, you have no insight into which translators bid on which jobs, nor on what rates they offer when they bid. You can only suspect that it is the same type of translator each time, and you have no evidence whatsoever to suggest that the translators who bid on those jobs submit bids within the clients' proposed ranges.
What would be great (or rather: what would be interesting) is if translators who bid on jobs can also fill in a short anonymous survey to indicate what rate they offered the client. If a job gets more than X bids, the anonimised information is made public after X number of days.
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Bernhard Sulzer
United States
Local time: 16:33
English to German
+ ...
TOPIC STARTER | My request is geared to improving the image of the translator profession | Jan 7, 2017 |
Annamaria Amik wrote: Bernhard Sulzer wrote:
With the rate/rate-range option taken away, the translator must make the effort to think about his/her proposal or at least Proz.com doesn't publicly display and indirectly support the cheap rates/jobs - a clear image boost for them and me (indirectly).
Now that should be reasonable.
No, that would be pure waste of time for a professional translator. To spend time on preparing a solid quote only to be refused on the grounds of rates is a waste of time.
Usually, the first thing is that you express an interest, and based on the information given, the translator can even provide a tentative price or rate/rate range in his/her first reply and make it clear that any firm quote must be based on a review of the original documents and the assessment of the required work. He/she can also emphasize a few other points, such as being an expert in the field, having experience, being committed to quality and timely delivery etc.
That doesn't take long (you can actually have as many templates of replies as you want ready and saved in your Proz.com quote form page) and will encourage job posters to think more about the value of translations and the worth of our work in general, to whom they should give the project or how much they should actually charge their client for it. I don't consider any of this a waste of time. It is behavior that tries to move away from ignoring things that are going on and educating prospective outsourcer and direct clients. And even if it doesn't work out all the time, you have made your voice heard for the future. Important to me is that the translator is given the chance and must make an effort to think about his/her rates when the job post does not include rate demands that are only there to get cheap help, a practice that doesn't help our industry in general, and the end clients in particular. I've already spoken to that point earlier.
Annamaria Amik wrote:
Some agencies simply won't pay $0.1, because they work in a segment where their forte (sorry, no better word) is being cheap. They work with end clients who are not big players in their fields, either, and are used to average quality. I know some agencies like that - they work with part-time translators, for example bankers, whose target language skill is just OK, but not exquisite, who simply don't have the skill to research terms even in their own field of specialization, because, with a full time job, they can't dedicate the time and their risk is not as high, anyway, they have a job they won't lose with an average or poor translation, they are not so motivated to be the best in their fields of specialization.
And then there are agencies who, of course, would like to save money where they can, and use CAT tools to pretranslate previously translated parts, but refuse to compromise on quality and will gladly pay what they think are high rates, if you are so good that your quality, professionalism and specialization simply seduce them. I know agencies like that, as well.
When it comes to my special fields, I am pretty aware and defensive against what is going on. Fact is, jobs are posted on job boards in my special fields (law, business, marketing) that demand the expertise and experience and then offer a pittance. This doesn't go on a few times a week, it is the norm on job boards. Just visit a few. As a professional and serious translator and businessman who has a profile here on a site that is called Proz.com, I think it gives the wrong impression to any visitor who is trying to gauge the value of translation work before he/she posts a job on the job board. The fact that this practice of posting inadequate rates for sophisticated work continues every day, doesn't sit well with me. And I have already explained earlier why not. And I have no intention of excusing or understanding people who, for whatever reason, want or need to have/produce inadequate work; or worse, want and get good work for peanuts. That's not why I am here on this site.
Annamaria Amik wrote:
I fully agree with Siegfried: you alone are responsible for your image. Your image is based on your skills. It is very difficult for a "general" translator, who is willing to work in several very specialized fields, to impress - what exactly is his/her strength? Can he really claim that he has a thorough understanding of technology AND law AND finance? Doesn't top-notch financial translator (replace with any other field of specialism) sound much more reasonable than just top-notch translator?
Part of my image is that I have a profile here. I am specialized in a few fields and I have excellent feedback. What I need is an increased understanding from prospective clients concerning the worth of serious translators featured on this site. As I discussed earlier, when cheap posters can no longer demand and post ridiculous rates/rate ranges, this part of my (indirect) window display goes away. That's important to me. And I think it might have good ramifications for the whole process chain, from the end client looking for great work, and the translator providing it.
Annamaria Amik wrote:
All the successful translators I know are specialized translators. Of course, there are fantastic ones who produce excellent translations in general, more accessible fields, but they are not as successful.
Language skills alone will not really impress a bank/law office/manufacturer/media company, etc. - your great knowledge of their specific field + your excellent language skills + professionalism in managing your projects will. And then they accept whatever reasonable price you're asking.
[Edited at 2017-01-06 14:31 GMT]
No one is arguing against specializing in certain fields for the benefit of one's business. I believe that regular clients who pay reasonable rates to their expert translator will certainly do that in the future, I hope, but when it comes to new clients, it becomes harder to make it clear to them why they should pay that expert's fee instead of going to the cheaper competition that promises them the same thing and hires willing translators on job boards. Here on this site, we should have a chance to stand out and convey the message that translators aren't just the last cog in a chain that just uses them. Thus, my request to do away with unreasonable demands from outsoucers.
[Edited at 2017-01-07 16:37 GMT]
| | | | Bernhard Sulzer
United States
Local time: 16:33
English to German
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TOPIC STARTER | I think it's very likely that cheap offers are finding their cheap takers | Jan 7, 2017 |
Samuel Murray wrote: Bernhard Sulzer wrote:
It's a recurring situation, every day: same bottom rates, same type of translator accepting... Sorry, but no, you have no insight into which translators bid on which jobs, nor on what rates they offer when they bid. You can only suspect that it is the same type of translator each time, and you have no evidence whatsoever to suggest that the translators who bid on those jobs submit bids within the clients' proposed ranges. ...
It's not only about what actually happens, it's about what impression for visitors is created by the window display of the cheap rate outsourcer and translator. I don't like that window display, it is completely opposed to what I expect from the site of which I am a member of and, as I argued before, it isn't helpful to serious translators. It encourages bidding with rock bottom prices. But since you so emphatically state that I have no insight into what's going on, I would suggest to you to try it out. I certainly have done my "research." But what is obvious to me is that the display of cheap rate demands has been continuing for quite a while and it comes from all corners of the world. It is not representative of what professionals do but it seems to work because I don't see any increase in the rates that are demanded. Often, quite the opposite is the case. Now, to me that means it is very likely those jobs are indeed carried out for the cheap rates that are demanded.
[Edited at 2017-01-07 16:40 GMT]
| | | | Rita Koterba (X)
United Kingdom
Local time: 21:33
French to English
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| Relieved to have others who are of the same opinion. | Jan 7, 2017 |
I find the rates shockingly low and for me this demeans job and I find it insulting. Translation is a valuable skill and not always easy. I will not accept below a certain rate but receive feedback such as "Do you know we have rates as low as xyz in this language pair?"
I firmly believe it is up to translators to refuse to accept rates which make a mockery of the profession. This sounds strong but I studied hard for my degree and have experience in various sectors and I want to ... See more I find the rates shockingly low and for me this demeans job and I find it insulting. Translation is a valuable skill and not always easy. I will not accept below a certain rate but receive feedback such as "Do you know we have rates as low as xyz in this language pair?"
I firmly believe it is up to translators to refuse to accept rates which make a mockery of the profession. This sounds strong but I studied hard for my degree and have experience in various sectors and I want to be rewarded for doing so.
Furthermore the worry for me is that if such low rates are being accepted then the quality of the translations may suffer as well.
I am glad this subject has been broached here as it has been bothering me for a while. The only way we can raise rates to an acceptable standard is to refuse work that is poorly paid. At the end of the day if clients need translations completed they will need to increase their budgets to more realistic amounts. ▲ Collapse
| | | | Samuel Murray
Netherlands
Local time: 22:33
Member (2006)
English to Afrikaans
+ ...
Bernhard Sulzer wrote:
It's [also] about what impression for visitors is created by the window display of the cheap rate outsourcer and translator. I don't like that window display...
I don't see that window. What window are you talking about? Can you show us a screenshot of the window that irks you?
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Bernhard Sulzer
United States
Local time: 16:33
English to German
+ ...
TOPIC STARTER | Clarification | Jan 7, 2017 |
Samuel Murray wrote: Bernhard Sulzer wrote:
It's [also] about what impression for visitors is created by the window display of the cheap rate outsourcer and translator. I don't like that window display... I don't see that window. What window are you talking about? Can you show us a screenshot of the window that irks you?
What I meant with this is simply postings of unreasonable requests by outsourcers on job boards.
| | | | S_G_C
Romania
Local time: 23:33
English to Romanian
5 cents per word is not reasonable in any language combination.
I don't believe there are too many translators or outsourcers who actually care about this.
| | | | | If you have that kind of time, just go for it... | Jan 8, 2017 |
Bernhard Sulzer wrote:
Usually, the first thing is that you express an interest, and based on the information given, the translator can even provide a tentative price or rate/rate range in his/her first reply and make it clear that any firm quote must be based on a review of the original documents and the assessment of the required work.
No, that's not the first thing. The first thing for me is to check whether the agency is a good one an worth even those few minutes of my time. Seeing right from the start that they work in the low-price segment of the market, and that segment exists even if you don't like it, is very helpful for me, because I really don't have the time to prepare a customized answer to impress a client who cares nothing about that kind of impression and only looks at the rate.
Accountants, lawyers, architects, etc. charge different prices, mostly based on how good and experienced they are, at least where I live - why should this be any different in the case of translators?
Bernhard Sulzer wrote:
He/she can also emphasize a few other points, such as being an expert in the field, having experience, being committed to quality and timely delivery etc.
That doesn't take long... and will encourage job posters to think more about the value of translations and the worth of our work in general, to whom they should give the project or how much they should actually charge their client for it.
Wow, is that really "just another point"? Isn't that a professional translator's strength, being the best in his/her field? That's the first thing a translator should point out in a quote, isn't it? This is my rate and you should choose me, because I'm so darn good and have such a terrific understanding of my fields that you won't get this anywhere else. At that first stage of negotiation, quality and punctual delivery are just words, personally I think only beginners use arguments like that, i.e. ones they can't really prove.
Bernhard Sulzer wrote:
but when it comes to new clients, it becomes harder to make it clear to them why they should pay that expert's fee instead of going to the cheaper competition that promises them the same thing and hires willing translators on job boards.
Of course it is harder to make it clear they should pay the expert's fee! Being able to make this clear is just another difference between an amateur and an expert. It is the translator's job to convince the client that he's really good, it is not something the client should just assume.
Quality should not be assumed, it should be proven. Many clients do care deeply about quality. And with a client who cares about quality, a low-price translator will only get away with a bad translation once, so he is not really a professional translator's competition. Now if a cheap translator happens to be good, but charge lower fees for various objective and subjective reasons (see my calculations in my previous messages), it is really his business. An amateur will never put an expert out of business, at least not out of the business the expert wants to keep.
Bernhard Sulzer wrote:
Here on this site, we should have a chance to stand out...
Yeah, and we should stand out by being good and better than others, not because ProZ removes any possibility of not standing out.
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