| Pages in topic: < [1 2 3 4 5 6 7 8 9 10] > | Can we please do away with unreasonable requests from outsourcers? Thread poster: Bernhard Sulzer
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MK2010 
United States
Local time: 09:58
French to English
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| But "negotiable"... | Jan 9, 2017 |
...can also make sense in many cases. It doesn't by any stretch of the imagination mean that a translator will charge whatever the client is willing to pay, it means that the translator practices some degree of flexibility and may offer, for example, discounts on volumes over a certain word count, discounts to clients in certain sectors, and so on. Just as, conversely, many translators will charge more for a rush job.
These strike me as perfectly normal, age-old business practices.... See more ...can also make sense in many cases. It doesn't by any stretch of the imagination mean that a translator will charge whatever the client is willing to pay, it means that the translator practices some degree of flexibility and may offer, for example, discounts on volumes over a certain word count, discounts to clients in certain sectors, and so on. Just as, conversely, many translators will charge more for a rush job.
These strike me as perfectly normal, age-old business practices. I know offering discounts for large volumes is an area of contention here, but personally, for me a large project means guaranteed income over a certain period of time = peace of mind = less stress + less time spent pursuing other jobs = I don't mind charging a slightly reduced rate. Who wouldn't rather a single 2,000-dollar job versus 10 different 200-dollar jobs with potentially 10 different clients / 10 different email conversations / and 10 different contracts to sign and invoices to write? Not to mention 10 different payments arriving on various dates and with potentially various degrees of reliability.
I would also rather make a little less on projects I enjoy rather than more on projects that make me want to smash my laptop against the wall. Some fields pay less than others and some clients have less money than others, and that's just the way it is.
"Sliding scales" are not exactly a new invention, they've been around forever and are applied by all sorts of industries. Ultimately, I believe it's about what each translator feels comfortable with and what is sustainable for them.
José Henrique Lamensdorf wrote:
This is the extended version of what is actually taking place when a translator fills in an online application form (which could be a Proz job bid) with:
Rate: Negotiable
The above should lead anyone to spot a dysfunctional attitude on either side of the deal.
Unless it interferes with Proz meeting its business objectives (like I remarked on a previous post on this thread), there is no point in curbing either option. ▲ Collapse
| | | | Robert Forstag
United States
Local time: 09:58
Spanish to English
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| I prefer that desired rates continue to be listed | Jan 9, 2017 |
I agree with the posters who have pointed out that preventing posting of desired rates by outsourcers will only end up wasting the time of both outsourcers and prospective candidates.
A better way of imposing a negative consequence on outsourcers posting rates that "are below what 80% of translators in this language pair charge" (or below some other criterion) would be to stigmatize such offers by highlighting them in pink on the Jobs Board and/or placing the notification regarding ... See more I agree with the posters who have pointed out that preventing posting of desired rates by outsourcers will only end up wasting the time of both outsourcers and prospective candidates.
A better way of imposing a negative consequence on outsourcers posting rates that "are below what 80% of translators in this language pair charge" (or below some other criterion) would be to stigmatize such offers by highlighting them in pink on the Jobs Board and/or placing the notification regarding the lowness of the rate at the very beginning of the listing so that it is the first thing one sees after clicking on the posting.
This would have the twin purpose of stigmatizing such low offers (i.e., clearly sending the message that these are not the norm) and saving the time of professional translators by immediately giving them the information they need so as to dismiss such offers out of hand.
These are suggestions I have made several times over the years, and they have never received serious consideration.
And this is why the Jobs Board continues to be of little use to translators who charge fees at even the low and medium end of the professional spectrum. In effect, it often functions as a kind of "bargain basement" for outsourcers. I think that this cheapens the proz.com brand, but either this site does not agree that such is the case, or it tacitly acknowledges and accepts this reality.
So I no longer give much thought to it - except when I come upon these kinds of forum discussions.
Someone in this thread has pointed out that the notion of "acceptable rates" varies in a global market. No doubt! But what needs to be considered for the viability of this site is that the income from memberships, webinars, conferences, and sale of the expensive software programs that are so ubiquitously advertised here tends to come predominantly from translators residing in more developed countries. These translators reasonably expect that a significant percentage of postings on the Jobs Board will offer rates that are viable in terms of their realities. Given that this is not the case (at least in the most common language pairs) this site is not meeting the needs of these translators as regards an important site feature.
For this reason, and even though I do not agree with his specific suggestions, I support the continued efforts of Bernhard and others to draw attention to this longstanding problem.
[Edited at 2017-01-09 15:02 GMT] ▲ Collapse
| | | | S_G_C
Romania
Local time: 16:58
English to Romanian
| Paying, non-paying, rates | Jan 9, 2017 |
Bernhard Sulzer wrote:
If I wereto work for 5 - 10 Cents every time I get a project, it becomes ridiculous. So, let's not encourage a trend.
I do work hard and am flexible with prices, but I need to consider what's happening in the world of translation services in general and on Proz.com because I am a paying member.
[Edited at 2017-01-09 13:35 GMT]
So, there are paying Proz members who work for 5 - 10 EUR cents in your language combination(s), Bernhard? Do you know who they are and why do they do this?
Non-paying members cannot quote on jobs anyway. When I tried to do that, I always got the message "add money to your wallet first". And then there are the Platinum-restricted jobs.
| | | | S_G_C
Romania
Local time: 16:58
English to Romanian
Someone in this thread has pointed out that the notion of "acceptable rates" varies in a global market. No doubt! But what needs to be considered for the viability of this site is that the income from memberships, webinars, conferences, and sale of the expensive software programs that are so ubiquitously advertised here tends to come predominantly from translators residing in more developed countries. These translators reasonably expect that a significant percentage of postings on the Jobs Board will offer rates that are viable in terms of their realities. Given that this is not the case (at least in the most common language pairs) this site is not meeting the needs of these translators as regards an important site feature.
In the past, did these memberships, webinars, conferences, and sale of the expensive software programs that are so ubiquitously advertised here insure/guarantee their beneficiaries more/better paid projects?
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| Understanding should go both ways | Jan 10, 2017 |
Bernhard Sulzer wrote:
I understand things are different in your country, but try to understand it from my perspective. If I wereto work for 5 - 10 Cents every time I get a project, it becomes ridiculous. So, let's not encourage a trend.
I'm not talking about my country alone, there are many others in Eastern Europe and elsewhere.
You're free to and you should indeed push for the changes you want, which is absolutely understandable in your conditions, but you, too, should try to understand that others in their own circumstances live very well charging rates that are unsustainable for you.
Charging 5 cents is, obviously, ridiculous for you, because you need to make much more than $700 net to make a good living where you live. If the Indian guy lives nicely on $500, there's nothing you can do about it. If he works the hours that are acceptable for him, earning income that is acceptable for him, why on earth would he double or triple his rates at the risk of losing his established clients?
There is another important aspect here: although translators work in a global environment, the agencies they work with are sometimes tied to the local market. Most agencies I work with serve direct clients in their own country, and that clearly determines the rates those end clients are willing to pay. It is very-very rare, or even unheard of, for an average Romanian company to be willing to pay $50 per page for an average text, while it pays $700/month or much less to its secretary or even its lawyer... Of course, larger organizations, such as banks, accept rates that are a lot closer to Western ones.
So instead of presenting this as a global problem, you just need to put in more effort and find clients who pay your rates - there are plenty, I'm sure. As long as there is globalization, you won't be able to prevent dumping. Focus instead on the change you can make, i.e. finding better clients.
I fully support Samuel's suggestion that quoted rates should be disclosed after a short while.
I also agree with Robert's idea that lower-rate jobs should be highlighted in pink. Or maybe a column should be added on the jobs board page, and jobs offering rates that are strikingly low compared to average declared rates here get a funny/sarcastic clown face? Well, maybe a sad face would be enough
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Annamaria Amik wrote: I also agree with Robert's idea that lower-rate jobs should be highlighted in pink. Or maybe a column should be added on the jobs board page, and jobs offering rates that are strikingly low compared to average declared rates here get a funny/sarcastic clown face? Well, maybe a sad face would be enough
Me too
| | | | Bernhard Sulzer
United States
Local time: 09:58
English to German
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TOPIC STARTER | Cheap jobs in any language combination | Jan 10, 2017 |
Sorana_M. wrote: Bernhard Sulzer wrote:
If I wereto work for 5 - 10 Cents every time I get a project, it becomes ridiculous. So, let's not encourage a trend.
I do work hard and am flexible with prices, but I need to consider what's happening in the world of translation services in general and on Proz.com because I am a paying member.
[Edited at 2017-01-09 13:35 GMT] So, there are paying Proz members who work for 5 - 10 EUR cents in your language combination(s), Bernhard? Do you know who they are and why do they do this? Non-paying members cannot quote on jobs anyway. When I tried to do that, I always got the message "add money to your wallet first". And then there are the Platinum-restricted jobs.
Those types of jobs indeed continue to be posted in my language combinations or they include a "give us your best rate offer" disclaimer. People also obviously bid for them and someone is carrying them out. And usually we're not talking 10 or 20,000 words, much less.
[Edited at 2017-01-10 21:49 GMT]
| | | | Bernhard Sulzer
United States
Local time: 09:58
English to German
+ ...
TOPIC STARTER | Just responding | Jan 10, 2017 |
Annamaria Amik wrote: Bernhard Sulzer wrote:
I understand things are different in your country, but try to understand it from my perspective. If I wereto work for 5 - 10 Cents every time I get a project, it becomes ridiculous. So, let's not encourage a trend.
I'm not talking about my country alone, there are many others in Eastern Europe and elsewhere. You're free to and you should indeed push for the changes you want, which is absolutely understandable in your conditions, but you, too, should try to understand that others in their own circumstances live very well charging rates that are unsustainable for you.
Yes, people in Western countries have also jumped on the "gravy" train. Do you see where this train might be headed back to? All I am saying is a professional site should cater to professional members. They are trying, but I believe we don't need the outsourcers posting rates/rate ranges. You are free to quote what you want, and yes, it will depend on many factors. But ridiculous is ridiculous, and pink ridiculous is pink ridiculous.
Annamaria Amik wrote:
Charging 5 cents is, obviously, ridiculous for you, because you need to make much more than $700 net to make a good living where you live. If the Indian guy lives nicely on $500, there's nothing you can do about it. If he works the hours that are acceptable for him, earning income that is acceptable for him, why on earth would he double or triple his rates at the risk of losing his established clients?
Because the Indian guy, if he's good, can compete with other guys and gals on the global market. There he can either stay with his "edge" and charge peanuts or make more. But I am also on the global market and if I have to compete with anyone, it has to be worth my time. And I am not saying it isn't, but I don't need to see postings for ridiculous rates here where I pitched my tent.
Annamaria Amik wrote:
There is another important aspect here: although translators work in a global environment, the agencies they work with are sometimes tied to the local market. Most agencies I work with serve direct clients in their own country, and that clearly determines the rates those end clients are willing to pay. It is very-very rare, or even unheard of, for an average Romanian company to be willing to pay $50 per page for an average text, while it pays $700/month or much less to its secretary or even its lawyer... Of course, larger organizations, such as banks, accept rates that are a lot closer to Western ones.
Be that as it may with Romanian companies, it's certainly not my reality. And it's no secret that low-cost agencies are trying to serve all kinds of language directions, i.e. a job given by a German end client ( let's say a big company) might first end up with agency 1, then with agency 2 in a low-cost country and 3 with a translator sitting in the US or India or Timbuktu doing the job for a pittance.
Annamaria Amik wrote:
So instead of presenting this as a global problem, you just need to put in more effort and find clients who pay your rates - there are plenty, I'm sure. As long as there is globalization, you won't be able to prevent dumping. Focus instead on the change you can make, i.e. finding better clients.
While there are still plenty of good clients and yes, I have some, and yes I put in a great effort into everything I do, I also acknowledge what I perceive as encouragement of outsourcers to ultimately decrease rates. I don't want to see it on here where I also advertise.
Annamaria Amik wrote: I fully support Samuel's suggestion that quoted rates should be disclosed after a short while. I also agree with Robert's idea that lower-rate jobs should be highlighted in pink. Or maybe a column should be added on the jobs board page, and jobs offering rates that are strikingly low compared to average declared rates here get a funny/sarcastic clown face? Well, maybe a sad face would be enough
I appreciate the fact that you see there is something wrong here.
[Edited at 2017-01-10 14:55 GMT]
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MK2010
United States
Local time: 09:58
French to English
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| The other big translators' marketplace... | Jan 10, 2017 |
...just deletes jobs that pay under 0.05 USD / word. Usually after members bring it to the administrators' attention.
And I don't think they let translators quote minimum rates of less than 0.05 USD / word, either.
So that's one approach.
| | | | | So it's YOUR problem, essentially | Jan 10, 2017 |
Bernhard Sulzer wrote:
Because the Indian guy, if he's good, can compete with other guys and gals on the global market. There he can either stay with his "edge" and charge peanuts or make more. But I am also on the global market and if I have to compete with anyone, it has to be worth my time. And I am not saying it isn't, but I don't need to see postings for ridiculous rates here where I pitched my tent.
We could go on and on and on. Basically, in an environment where you can't possibly and sustainably lower your price, you're in an unlucky position - economically speaking, that's your problem, not a global one. Some people just want to make ends meet and not necessarily become millionaires. What seems like a lost opportunity of fantastic profit (i.e. a competent Indian colleague charging too little by Western standards) to you, may be just content modesty to someone else
Seeing what kind of rates an agency works with saves my time. You won't really convince a small player to pay the rates of big/reasonable players. Maybe ProZ should run a poll to see how many of the paying members want to see the budget range in job posts?
Like I said, keep advocating better rates, but don't make it sound like a global problem, when it isn't. The globe is a very big place, with very many people with very many and diverse needs.
Annamaria
P.S. For the record, I'm very annoyed, too, when I see (local) agencies offering $0.02/word and on top of that, believing that they are reasonable. When I turn them down, often I feel an urge to ask them whether they would be willing to translate for me at that rate, because sometimes I do have more work than I can handle...
| | | | Bernhard Sulzer
United States
Local time: 09:58
English to German
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TOPIC STARTER | There is a limit | Jan 10, 2017 |
I don't think we have to overcomplicate things. You're not supporting sweatshops. I know you don't We're not just talking about honest people trying to make ends meet.
Annamaria Amik wrote:
Like I said, keep advocating better rates, but don't make it sound like a global problem, when it isn't. The globe is a very big place, with very many people with very many and diverse needs.
Well, in my opinion, it kind of is. Through the internet, these dumping prices are made possible everywhere.
[Edited at 2017-01-10 15:25 GMT]
| | | | Bernhard Sulzer
United States
Local time: 09:58
English to German
+ ...
TOPIC STARTER
MK2010 wrote:
The other big translators' marketplace...
...just deletes jobs that pay under 0.05 USD / word. Usually after members bring it to the administrators' attention.
And I don't think they let translators quote minimum rates of less than 0.05 USD / word, either. ...
Indeed.
[Edited at 2017-01-10 15:29 GMT]
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Lingua 5B
Bosnia and Herzegovina
Local time: 15:58
Member (2009)
English to Croatian
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| Let's leave environments aside for a moment. | Jan 10, 2017 |
Annamaria Amik wrote:
We could go on and on and on. Basically, in an environment where you can't possibly and sustainably lower your price, you're in an unlucky position - economically speaking, that's your problem, not a global one.
According to your "logic", my rate for ProZ membership and Trados license should be lower than for a German colleague - but I will surprise you here - no, it is not and it never will be. We pay the same rate for these two things. Why should my translation rate be lower than that of a German colleague then?
[Edited at 2017-01-10 17:02 GMT]
| | | | | False parallel | Jan 10, 2017 |
Lingua 5B wrote: Annamaria Amik wrote:
We could go on and on and on. Basically, in an environment where you can't possibly and sustainably lower your price, you're in an unlucky position - economically speaking, that's your problem, not a global one.
According to your "logic", my rate for ProZ membership and Trados license should be lower than for a German colleague - but I will surprise you here - no, it is not and it never will be. We pay the same rate for these two things. Why should my translation rate be lower than that of a German colleague then?
No, my logic doesn't just reverse the roles described in the economic situation we were discussing and assume that such a reversal will be an efficient reductio ad absurdum There's no logic in drawing this parallel, you reversed the roles in your scenario: we were talking about different providers providing services here, but in the situation you described, both you and the German colleague receive the exact same services from the exact same provider (ProZ or Trados). The topic here is how a service provider prices its services, and I'm pretty sure both ProZ and Trados factored in their costs when they determined their prices.
| | | | Lingua 5B
Bosnia and Herzegovina
Local time: 15:58
Member (2009)
English to Croatian
+ ...
| It's how I see it, sorry. | Jan 10, 2017 |
You are basically saying that someone's work, professional effort, expertise, and years of education should be rewarded with less money just because a person is based in XY country, and also I can hear a sense/tone of pride in your saying so. You are basically saying someone is triumphing by lowering their price. Your logic doesn't have to be my logic.
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