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Can we please do away with unreasonable requests from outsourcers?
Thread poster: Bernhard Sulzer
Cristiana Coblis
Cristiana Coblis  Identity Verified
Romania
Local time: 16:56
Member (2004)
English to Romanian
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Beginners and India Jan 28, 2017

You are too kind, José. I can't imagine life without that type of inquiries)) I was watching Davos talks on YouTube last week and I found out that a person can live off 1000 rupees/month in India. I also found out how much 1000 rupees is. Apparently, that kind of money can really make a difference to many people. Billions of people.

And it's not just that, I worked with a couple of beginners in the last few years hel
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You are too kind, José. I can't imagine life without that type of inquiries)) I was watching Davos talks on YouTube last week and I found out that a person can live off 1000 rupees/month in India. I also found out how much 1000 rupees is. Apparently, that kind of money can really make a difference to many people. Billions of people.

And it's not just that, I worked with a couple of beginners in the last few years helping them start out. Let me tell you, things have changed in the last 15 years. It's a lot more difficult now for a beginner to start out having the weight of the entire internet on their shoulders. It was not easy back then, I know that a colleague had to take out a bank loan to buy Trados 15 years ago. She was a teacher starting out as a translator, Trados was a small fortune for her salary. It's more difficult now for those starting out.

With youth unemployment at the level that it's now, I can frankly put up with a little annoyance on the site and wherever if it makes a difference to other people making a living somewhere, in India or elsewhere.

Don't get me wrong, I'm all for a good rant, it's good for the soul. But sometimes we are too busy complaining about the little things and we forget how lucky we are.
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Bernhard Sulzer
Bernhard Sulzer  Identity Verified
United States
Local time: 10:56
English to German
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TOPIC STARTER
Neither the young nor the old should be induced to work for rock bottom rates Jan 28, 2017

Cristiana Coblis wrote:


With youth unemployment at the level that it's now, I can frankly put up with a little annoyance on the site and wherever if it makes a difference to other people making a living somewhere, in India or elsewhere.


So the young are supposed to make peanuts?
Don't you think you are helping all those cheap outsourcers with a statement like that? They don't care if you're starting out or are a seasoned professional. They just think in terms of their own unprofessional competition.
This site calls itself a professional site and I as a paying member expect professional services .. a professional environment. Thus my discussion and suggestions.

Cristiana Coblis wrote:
Don't get me wrong, I'm all for a good rant, it's good for the soul. But sometimes we are too busy complaining about the little things and we forget how lucky we are.


Well, I beg to differ. I don't see my thoughts as ranting etc. or the topic as unimportant. Quite the opposite.

[Edited at 2017-01-28 19:12 GMT]

[Edited at 2017-01-28 19:27 GMT]


 
Cristiana Coblis
Cristiana Coblis  Identity Verified
Romania
Local time: 16:56
Member (2004)
English to Romanian
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Budget info Jan 28, 2017

Bernhard Sulzer wrote:

Cristiana Coblis wrote:
With youth unemployment at the level that it's now, I can frankly put up with a little annoyance on the site and wherever if it makes a difference to other people making a living somewhere, in India or elsewhere.


So the young are supposed to make peanuts?
Don't you think you are helping all those cheap outsourcers with a statement like that?


Call it whatever you want.
Young people are not morons. They would very much like to make more than I do in their first year starting out ))
There is no obligation to quote within that budget. You can offer your own rates. This is what I do.

The reality however is that where I might go "WTF" others may go "Oh, can I really charge that?". Without budget info, some people might quote much higher or much lower. As mentioned, it was introduced at the request of members of the site. I don't remember the exact reason, however in some cases, the budget is what it is. If it's far below what you charge, it's best to know it beforehand and not waste your time. I don't often look at job offers, but I usually find that budget is a good starting point in negotiations.

Not all language combos can be FIGS, those who work in a smaller language pair with a lot less demand, higher competition or worse off markets might find that budget info useful. You might also find that many people quote above the budget and many others quote below the budget. This site has to accommodate a lot of people, not only those working in FIGS.

Live and let live.


 
José Henrique Lamensdorf
José Henrique Lamensdorf  Identity Verified
Brazil
Local time: 11:56
English to Portuguese
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In memoriam
This is the entire point Jan 28, 2017

Cristiana Coblis wrote:

I don't remember the exact reason, however in some cases, the budget is what it is. If it's far below what you charge, it's best to know it beforehand and not waste your time.


If all who accept a low offer are not qualified for what the prospect wants, AND if s/he is smart, it will be a warning to up the ante. Some do, others don't.

Some years ago I thought about the possibility of some of these bottom-feeders having never seen decent quality in translation. So I picked one of these offers a month, paying at least at 2/3 of my rate, and forewarned them that this would be a one-off promo. If they wanted my services again in the future, it would be at MY standard rates. Well? None of them ever used my services again, yet two, so many years later, still offer me jobs now and then, which I don't bother to reply.

The conclusion is that bottom-feeders shall be bottom-feeders forever. If I worked in a Mercedes dealership, I wouldn't expect anyone trading in a battered Tata.


 
Bernhard Sulzer
Bernhard Sulzer  Identity Verified
United States
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English to German
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TOPIC STARTER
If you are new to this thread ... Jan 29, 2017

.. and are planning to post your opinion, please read the whole thread first because certain things have already been discussed. That will help for the further discussion.

Also, I would like to invite you to read the following thread which deals with this very problem, a survey and a petition that were done back in 2010 whereupon the current solution (outsourcers can post rate ranges) was implemented:

A direct link to a
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.. and are planning to post your opinion, please read the whole thread first because certain things have already been discussed. That will help for the further discussion.

Also, I would like to invite you to read the following thread which deals with this very problem, a survey and a petition that were done back in 2010 whereupon the current solution (outsourcers can post rate ranges) was implemented:

A direct link to a translator's opinion:
http://www.proz.com/forum/proposals_arising_out_of_job_posting_petition/161047-proposal_related_to_barring_outsourcers_from_offering_rate_at_outset_of_job_discussions-page7.html#1357226


The beginning of this older thread by Henry (it shows you many points and opinions on this issue, mainly by concerned and professional colleagues as well as Henry):

"Proposal related to barring outsourcers from offering rate at outset of job discussions:"

http://www.proz.com/forum/proposals_arising_out_of_job_posting_petition/161047-proposal_related_to_barring_outsourcers_from_offering_rate_at_outset_of_job_discussions.html





[Edited at 2017-01-29 03:45 GMT]
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Siegfried Armbruster
Siegfried Armbruster  Identity Verified
Germany
Local time: 15:56
English to German
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In memoriam
If you are new to this thread ... II Jan 29, 2017

You can easily ignor it.
In my opinion, it does not contain anything that has not been discussed ad nauseam in the last few years.
There is no new information and there is nothing ProZ can really do about it. In contrast, ProZ always tried and still tries to give us the tools (i. e. at the moment in form of the new Plus package and the lower price for the standard package) and the platform to land good business.

The concept of word based rates is in my opinion st
... See more
You can easily ignor it.
In my opinion, it does not contain anything that has not been discussed ad nauseam in the last few years.
There is no new information and there is nothing ProZ can really do about it. In contrast, ProZ always tried and still tries to give us the tools (i. e. at the moment in form of the new Plus package and the lower price for the standard package) and the platform to land good business.

The concept of word based rates is in my opinion stone age, specially when the increase in productivity is ignored that many of us realized by using modern tools.

There exists no "one world wide market" fits it all. There are several 100 or 1000 of different markets, and we all have to find and or develop our niche.

Sure, everybody has a right to his own opinion - I'll try to spend my time a bit more positive.
There are things we can do to improve our experience with ProZ, - join me, for 2 free webinars

1 in German
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9/2/2017, 10:30 CET, 1.5 h.


and

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Sheila Wilson
Sheila Wilson  Identity Verified
Spain
Local time: 14:56
Member (2007)
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That's a totally skewed version of what happened Jan 29, 2017

Bernhard Sulzer wrote:
I would like to invite you to read the following thread which deals with this very problem, a survey and a petition that were done back in 2010 whereupon the current solution (outsourcers can post rate ranges) was implemented

That petition back in 2010 and the changes thst resulted from had pretty much the opposite objective and effect.

Before that time, outsourcers could post a job with the rate in the title line, and insist that all quoters stick to it. Needless to say, those rates were always abysmal as only bottom-feeding outsourcers dictate rates. New translators were indeed getting the message that the going rate was incredibly low. Like you, I put in considerable effort to educate fellow translators, so I was one of the many ProZ.com members demanding changes.

Those changes in 2010 made the stating of rates in clear against the rules. If you see any specific rate information in job posts nowadays, Bernhard, you can report it using the link at the bottom. Staff are always quick to respond. Now, you might see "best rates" or "limited budget" mentioned, but that's all. In addition, there's a "budget" area that outsourcers may complete if they wish. But this is only visible to paying members, I believe (correct me if I'm wrong), Even then, it looks very different from the other text (it's a blue box) and the budget details themselves are hidden unless paying members choose to see them. They also come with a statement to the effect that no way do we have to quote within that budget. And stupidly low budgets get a warning that if you go along with it you'll be working for a rate that's below what 80% of translators state is average.

So yes, the changes did bring in this "budget box". But only because we asked for paying members to be given the possibility of seeing the rate, to avoid wasting time quoting if the gulf was too large. Or to send an "educational message" rather than a quote.. I presume that most paying members have a reasonably solid footing in the profession and don't work for bottom-feeders, seeing that ProZ.com doesn't accept payment in peanuts.

The main outcome of that 2010 petition was quite the reverse of what you implied. It prevented outsourcers stating in clear their rate for the job, and gave us back the right to state our rates. I for one was extremely happy with the changes. They're a compromise, of course, but those who don't pay for membership now don't get to see a poster's idea of rates. That will cover some practising translators, plus wannabee translators, active job posters, other potential outsourcers, end users, casual site browsers...

So please give merit where merit's due.


 
Bernhard Sulzer
Bernhard Sulzer  Identity Verified
United States
Local time: 10:56
English to German
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TOPIC STARTER
Clarification Jan 29, 2017

Sheila Wilson wrote:

Bernhard Sulzer wrote:
I would like to invite you to read the following thread which deals with this very problem, a survey and a petition that were done back in 2010 whereupon the current solution (outsourcers can post rate ranges) was implemented


That petition back in 2010 and the changes thst resulted from had pretty much the opposite objective and effect.


As far as I know, translators in the petition sought to get rid of rate postings altogether. At least the translators speaking out in Henry's thread were affirming that. That was the objective. Please correct me if I am wrong. Because if that's true, then I have to restate my objective as one obviously sought by me now and a lot of colleagues as well back in 2010. In any case, what happened with regard to rate postings by outsourcers in 2010 wasn't the effect of the petition I mentioned, it was rather what Proz.com staff decided to do after the surveys were closed and after the petition was submitted. And that's what I said above.

Sheila Wilson wrote:
Before that time, outsourcers could post a job with the rate in the title line, and insist that all quoters stick to it. Needless to say, those rates were always abysmal as only bottom-feeding outsourcers dictate rates. New translators were indeed getting the message that the going rate was incredibly low. Like you, I put in considerable effort to educate fellow translators, so I was one of the many ProZ.com members demanding changes.


Thank you for your efforts. They are certainly appreciated by many. But if you look at the current situation (with rate range postings), outsourcers are still able to demand such low rates, except that they are posted as a rate range, and are posted in the "budget information box.
It looks like this (an English > German example):




By the way, there is no warning attached to the above example. I lodged a support ticket to find out why. This has to do with the cut-off rate that will trigger the warning posted under the budget that 80% of translators/language experts charge more than that. That warning always hinges on the top number, in this case it would be $0.07/word. The drawback is that if the poster decides to really only intend to pay $0.05/word, he/she can always get away with a posting without the 80% warning. This is another reason why I am unhappy with the posting of rates in any form.

Sheila Wilson wrote:
Those changes in 2010 made the stating of rates in clear against the rules. If you see any specific rate information in job posts nowadays, Bernhard, you can report it using the link at the bottom. Staff are always quick to respond.


That is correct. However, to avoid any misunderstandings by colleagues reading this here, I want to point out clearly that this prohibition is for specific rates only. It is not against the rules to post a rate range as in the above example.

Sheila Wilson wrote:
Now, you might see "best rates" or "limited budget" mentioned, but that's all. In addition, there's a "budget" area that outsourcers may complete if they wish. But this is only visible to paying members, I believe (correct me if I'm wrong),


If the budget (= rate range) is posted, it is visible to paying members. But we should state that it is only paying members who can bid on jobs, so this is indeed something that I as a paying member criticize and see as a problem for all paying members.

So, who is applying for these jobs? Paying members only. That is quite worrisome if you think it through
On the other hand, the people demanding these rates/posting these jobs do not have to be paying members of Proz.com at all.

Sheila Wilson wrote:
Even then, it looks very different from the other text (it's a blue box) and the budget details themselves are hidden unless paying members choose to see them.


As long as these rate postings continue, most people doing the low bidding will want to see the rates. They pounce on those jobs as quickly as possible to "win" them. It's exactly this practice, which I have argued about before, that concerns me the most.

Sheila Wilson wrote:
They also come with a statement to the effect that no way do we have to quote within that budget. And stupidly low budgets get a warning that if you go along with it you'll be working for a rate that's below what 80% of translators state is average.


Yes. But people pounce on them anyway and the same low rate ranges continue to be posted.

Sheila Wilson wrote:
So yes, the changes did bring in this "budget box". But only because we asked for paying members to be given the possibility of seeing the rate, to avoid wasting time quoting if the gulf was too large. Or to send an "educational message" rather than a quote.. I presume that most paying members have a reasonably solid footing in the profession and don't work for bottom-feeders, seeing that ProZ.com doesn't accept payment in peanuts.


Whatever people asked for with regard to these rate range/budget postings then, today, almost seven years later, I believe it is time to reevaluate the situation that, as far as job postings are concerned, is very alarming to me.
And I don't presume that any member has or should believe they will continue to have a reasonably solid footing in the profession to remain oblivious to the trend that is very obvious to me. I also don't see why I shouldn't remind paying Proz.com users that we should stand up for a community that, in every regard, tries to be professional.

Sheila Wilson wrote:
The main outcome of that 2010 petition was quite the reverse of what you implied. It prevented outsourcers stating in clear their rate for the job, and gave us back the right to state our rates. I for one was extremely happy with the changes. They're a compromise, of course, but those who don't pay for membership now don't get to see a poster's idea of rates. That will cover some practising translators, plus wannabee translators, active job posters, other potential outsourcers, end users, casual site browsers...

So please give merit where merit's due.


What happened in 2010 was not a direct effect of the petition. I don't think I was implying that. I stated that the petition dealt with what I am writing about in this thread as well, namely the banning of rate postings altogether, be it specific rates or rate changes. So, that was the objective, not to have rate range postings. Is it better to have rate ranges posted than specific rates? In my opinion, no. In either case, the outsourcer is dictating the rate, and if he/she wants, he/she can, and I believe that happens many times, insist on that bottom rate number of the rate range, or, as I believe is also likely to happen, the bidder who wants to win the bid will try to outbid anybody else on price, and he/she can clearly see what it takes to do that. No matter who is NOT able to see the rate range, those who see and use it worry me. Am I happy with the current situation? No, clearly not.

[Edited at 2017-01-29 17:44 GMT]


 
Sheila Wilson
Sheila Wilson  Identity Verified
Spain
Local time: 14:56
Member (2007)
English
+ ...
I remember only one forum thread, one petition, one set of changes to the job posting rules Jan 30, 2017

Bernhard Sulzer wrote:
As far as I know, translators in the petition sought to get rid of rate postings altogether. At least the translators speaking out in Henry's thread were affirming that. That was the objective. Please correct me if I am wrong. Because if that's true, then I have to restate my objective as one obviously sought by me now and a lot of colleagues as well back in 2010. In any case, what happened with regard to rate postings by outsourcers in 2010 wasn't the effect of the petition I mentioned, it was rather what Proz.com staff decided to do after the surveys were closed and after the petition was submitted. And that's what I said above.

Like any petition, its purpose was to get those responsible to realise that there was a lot of dissatisfaction. Staff at ProZ.com took note of our concerns and implemented the changes we asked for. I really can't remember the blow-by-blow account of events back in 2010, but I for one believe things changed enormously for the better at that point. You seem to be stating that the petition and the changes were unconnected - that isn't how I remember it.

I don't know. It seems like so much hair-splitting, but I can only say that I see a big difference between a job poster stating "we will pay €0.05 per word" and a post that simply asks freelancers for quotes, while in addition optionally mentioning a figure in what is clearly labelled a budget box. There's no hint of "demanding a rate" as you put it. I agree that it's sad for both individuals and the profession that some outsourcers take advantage of the naivety of some translators, and that some translators are sadly lacking in entrepreneurial skills. But the ProZ.com community is a part of the real world, and the real world isn't all pink and fluffy. We both take time to educate people here, and there are countless other ways people can inform themselves on this site. If they really want to ignore all the good advice, I don't see what we can do to prevent that. A community can only go so far to help its weakest members.


 
Bernhard Sulzer
Bernhard Sulzer  Identity Verified
United States
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English to German
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TOPIC STARTER
I like to see our community as a professional one Jan 30, 2017

Sheila Wilson wrote:

A community can only go so far to help its weakest members.


I see it all a bit differently. It has to do with the professional environment I am looking for and with acknowledging that it is the translator who should quote a rate/price, not the outsourcer. I also mentioned possible effects for all of us before in this thread that stem from translators bidding to get these low-paying jobs.


 
Annamaria Amik
Annamaria Amik  Identity Verified
Local time: 16:56
Romanian to English
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Rates and quality Jan 31, 2017

Cristiana Coblis wrote:

I was watching Davos talks on YouTube last week and I found out that a person can live off 1000 rupees/month in India. I also found out how much 1000 rupees is. Apparently, that kind of money can really make a difference to many people. Billions of people.

But sometimes we are too busy complaining about the little things and we forget how lucky we are.


And that says it all.

I do believe that comparisons should be made within the same country/region, not globally, since at least one of the major pricing factors, i.e. cost, varies from country to country.

@Bernhard, I can only add a sarcastic note: maybe it wouldn't be such a bad idea after all if some international organization did enforce what you call "decent rates", because then many incompetent and low-quality translators who only get decent rates because they live in more expensive countries and charge higher would be forced out of the market. Last time my country had that kind of strict regulation, disregarding the rules of market economy and served with the text "decent jobs for everyone", didn't turn out too well...


 
Katalin Horváth McClure
Katalin Horváth McClure  Identity Verified
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Member (2002)
English to Hungarian
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Bernard, think practically, please Jan 31, 2017

Bernard, even if you forbid outsourcers to post their rates or rate ranges in the budget box, they will still HAVE those ranges. It is delusional to think that they would not have at least a range in mind. It would force everyone to take an extra step to find that out.
So, what would happen is that people submit a quote, and then will be ignored or declined, because their rates are over the budget. I, for one, hate wasting time on preparing a quote just to learn that their budget is way be
... See more
Bernard, even if you forbid outsourcers to post their rates or rate ranges in the budget box, they will still HAVE those ranges. It is delusional to think that they would not have at least a range in mind. It would force everyone to take an extra step to find that out.
So, what would happen is that people submit a quote, and then will be ignored or declined, because their rates are over the budget. I, for one, hate wasting time on preparing a quote just to learn that their budget is way below my rates. Sadly, most of the jobs that are posted on the Job Board are like that, so I actually appreciate the budget box. It does not force me in any way to quote within that range, and if the range does not overlap with my range, I usually don't even bother.
If no budget was disclosed, translators would have to take extra time to find out, and if one spends time to prepare a quote, he/she is already "invested" and it may even be harder (emotionally) to walk away.

So, again, it is practical to have that budget box there, and it would be naive to think that taking that info away would - in any way - encourage or force outsourcers who post jobs on the job board to pay higher rates.
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Michael Wetzel
Michael Wetzel  Identity Verified
Germany
Local time: 15:56
German to English
Tilting at windmills Jan 31, 2017

Cristiana Coblis wrote:

Several outsourcers contacted me last week asking for my best rate/most competitive rate. I am usually almost fully booked several days in advance, I can afford to simply reply that my rates are not what you would normally call competitive and that my availability is limited. I don't like to waste their time, I reply openly that they can easily find someone at half my price and with a lot more availability. There is no point in hiding such things, I choose to be open about it. I can offer the information, let them know my own rates and the type of services that I offer. Enough of them still want to work with me regardless. If they choose to go for someone else, that is quite fine with me. It may be easier to think it's because of the rate, but it is not always. I have once met a translator who did not think he was the best. His rates were higher than mine.


I don't think there's any way to say it better. Annamaria and others have also repeatedly made the same point. Either translators grasp that they need to place themselves in this situation and then spend years working hard to get there and then do what is necessary to stay there or get back there - or they don't. Our work is worth as much as a group of clients big enough to consistently keep us busy is willing to pay for it.

Sheila Wilson wrote:

I agree that it's sad for both individuals and the profession that some outsourcers take advantage of the naivety of some translators, and that some translators are sadly lacking in entrepreneurial skills. But the ProZ.com community is a part of the real world, and the real world isn't all pink and fluffy. We both take time to educate people here, and there are countless other ways people can inform themselves on this site. If they really want to ignore all the good advice, I don't see what we can do to prevent that. A community can only go so far to help its weakest members.


It is productive to help people to recognize how they can live better (or well) and make a better (or good) living as a translator and how to accomplish this for themselves.
Sheila has obviously consistently put a lot of effort into this - and so have you. However, I think your chronic "peanuts" jeremiads are counter-productive. They seem to encourage translators to seek someone to blame or to feel like victims or to think globally, INSTEAD of acting locally. What those translators need to do is to figure out how to place themselves in Christina's position: Job posters' ability to suggest rates in their calls for offers is not the problem, and most of the people who have responded here don't even consider it problematic.

[Edited at 2017-01-31 08:10 GMT]


 
kd42
kd42
Estonia
Local time: 16:56
English to Russian
I guess there are other people who even get paid for this Jan 31, 2017

Lingua 5B wrote:
Cannot agree more. We cannot expect the people from other communities to do that for us, they have their own agenda, goals and interests (that may often conflict with our own).


Clients are registered businesses, they have books which can be checked by the government.

If the government discovers that an ambulance was taken to uncle Fred's garage for servicing, and the pay was 10 pounds and 2 beers, the hospital will be in great trouble.

If the government discovers that wiring in a house was installed by 2 teenagers, and the pay was 40 roubles and a cake, the building company will be in much trouble.

But, quite astonishingly, the government has free access to hundreds of posts on the Internet where established businesses invite translators to work at the rates of low-skilled labourers, and nobody gives a damn. They are very happy about it. They carry on with their Vogon activities, establish more commissions, hold more conferences, while the translation industry goes down the drain.


 
Annamaria Amik
Annamaria Amik  Identity Verified
Local time: 16:56
Romanian to English
+ ...
Low-skill rates where? Jan 31, 2017

kd42 wrote:
But, quite astonishingly, the government has free access to hundreds of posts on the Internet where established businesses invite translators to work at the rates of low-skilled labourers, and nobody gives a damn. They are very happy about it. They carry on with their Vogon activities, establish more commissions, hold more conferences, while the translation industry goes down the drain.


Rates of low-skilled laborers where exactly? Last time I checked, the Romanian government paid its certified-sworn translators about USD 8 / 2000 characters (300 words or so). Whenever I can, I refuse them, of course (two unjustified refusals a year and the sworn translator loses his license). That's about USD 0.03/word. Exactly what "government" can check a... government? If governmental agencies in Romania paid your "decent" rates to their translators, they would be accused of mismanagement of public funds and some directors may even find themselves under criminal prosecution.

These rants are plain stupid. Like Cristiana said, there are places in the world where 1000 rupees (use Google to see how much that is) means a lot to billions of people. Even skilled ones, in those regions.

[Edited at 2017-01-31 12:14 GMT]


 
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