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Can we please do away with unreasonable requests from outsourcers?
Thread poster: Bernhard Sulzer
Mirko Mainardi
Mirko Mainardi  Identity Verified
Italy
Local time: 11:19
Member
English to Italian
Example Jan 31, 2017

Annamaria Amik wrote:

I do believe that comparisons should be made within the same country/region, not globally, since at least one of the major pricing factors, i.e. cost, varies from country to country.


Agreed, also "same language pair". And that would be feasible, if only there was a will to do so. The "Community rates" feature would be a good place to start, with some refining and tweaking.

Rates of low-skilled laborers where exactly?


Just an example, from this thread:

"Required service: Proofreading
Source-target language: Swedish - English Australia
Field: Mining &Minerals
Words: approx 50
Rate per word: 0.020 EUR
Total amount: 3 EUR flat fee"

Please note the language pair. There are tons of similar (or worse) job posts in which the "where" is quite clear and totally clashes with the offered terms and conditions.


 
Mirko Mainardi
Mirko Mainardi  Identity Verified
Italy
Local time: 11:19
Member
English to Italian
Education and Reputation Jan 31, 2017

Despite the bashing Bernhard (and others IMO undeservedly) received, I believe the initial points he made in this thread are not at all unreasonable and worthy of consideration.

I think those could be summarized as:
1) Educate newcomers, or however, don't let them come to the conclusion that the abysmal and shameful rates (and other unreasonable demands) that keep appearing in job posts here are the norm; and
2) Avoid the risk that ProZ becomes known (and regarded) as
... See more
Despite the bashing Bernhard (and others IMO undeservedly) received, I believe the initial points he made in this thread are not at all unreasonable and worthy of consideration.

I think those could be summarized as:
1) Educate newcomers, or however, don't let them come to the conclusion that the abysmal and shameful rates (and other unreasonable demands) that keep appearing in job posts here are the norm; and
2) Avoid the risk that ProZ becomes known (and regarded) as the go-to place to find cheap "labor" instead of professional translators.

I believe we should all be interested in both points, as we (should) have a direct stake in this.

As for the "free market argument" (and its variations) that I often see popping up here and there: yes, sure, you CAN find good clients at good rates (elsewhere and probably even here), but please, let's not mix personal experiences with the overall situation, as ours still is a buyers' market where companies (sometimes huge multinationals) more often than not impose THEIR rates and conditions on (sometimes unsuspecting) individuals. The system we operate in is a far cry from a perfect competition environment (with perfect information).
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Gabriele Demuth
Gabriele Demuth  Identity Verified
United Kingdom
Local time: 10:19
English to German
Sad but true Jan 31, 2017

kd42 wrote:

But, quite astonishingly, the government has free access to hundreds of posts on the Internet where established businesses invite translators to work at the rates of low-skilled labourers, and nobody gives a damn. They are very happy about it. They carry on with their Vogon activities, establish more commissions, hold more conferences, while the translation industry goes down the drain.


It is annoying when agencies advertise their 'prominent', 'established', 'well known brand', 'large worldwide' ... clients, and at the same time tell you that they cannot pay your rate.

[Edited at 2017-01-31 13:08 GMT]


 
Siegfried Armbruster
Siegfried Armbruster  Identity Verified
Germany
Local time: 11:19
English to German
+ ...
In memoriam
Educate? Yes, but with action, not just with rants Jan 31, 2017

Mirko Mainardi wrote:
I think those could be summarized as:
1) Educate newcomers, or however, don't let them come to the conclusion that the abysmal and shameful rates (and other unreasonable demands) that keep appearing in job posts here are the norm.

I believe we should all be interested in both points, as we (should) have a direct stake in this.



So where is the educational value of this topic. I believe in education and as mentiond before I am offering real, free and practical training on how to use ProZ.

I believe in practical things, "embrace change", "we have to charge higher rates" etc, are in my opinion not very practical.

As I mentioned before these webinars are "FREE" (yes, I also offer paid training, but this is another topic.

GERMAN version
http://dvud.de/project/proz-intro/

ENGLISH version
http://dvud.de/project/do-you-speak-proz/

And while we are at the topic, I believe in sharing (to empower my fellow collegues) and you can find links to Autosuggest files (also free) I created from the latest DGT TMs on my profile. http://www.proz.com/?sp=profile&eid_s=49165&sp_mode=ctab&tab_id=114

Sharing and education are in my opinion a good way to strengthen our position, but we have to start with it. I do know several colleagues who contributed here how have in the past or still are very active "doing practical" stuff, but we could do with more.


[Edited at 2017-01-31 14:06 GMT]


 
Bernhard Sulzer
Bernhard Sulzer  Identity Verified
United States
Local time: 06:19
English to German
+ ...
TOPIC STARTER
I am for an overall professional environment Jan 31, 2017

Siegfried Armbruster wrote:

Educate? Yes, but with action, not just with rants


There really is no need to call the discussion held here a "rant." Many colleagues and I do feel strongly about this subject and are free to voice our opinions.

Mirko Mainardi wrote:
I think those could be summarized as:
1) Educate newcomers, or however, don't let them come to the conclusion that the abysmal and shameful rates (and other unreasonable demands) that keep appearing in job posts here are the norm.

I believe we should all be interested in both points, as we (should) have a direct stake in this.



Siegfried Armbruster wrote:

So where is the educational value of this topic. I believe in education and as mentiond before I am offering real, free and practical training on how to use ProZ.


There is a lot of information in this thread and in the thread from 2010 that I linked to in my earlier post that discusses the drawbacks of the posting of rates and rate ranges; just one purpose is to explain that the status quo induces very strongly the quick bidding on price, and, because bidders are given the rate range, bidding with very very low rates which in turn encourages such posters to continue their practice. As Mirko mentioned above, this could really be perceived as the norm here, i.e. race to put in the bid with the lowest rate (= the bottom number of the posted rate range or even lower) to get the job.

Education of newcomers is very important, but so is "education" of job posters that need to understand that they are the client and we are the service providers. The quotes should come from us, not them.

Were the situation such that the rate ranges reflected fair amounts, I wouldn't see it as such a big problem.

However, if the majority of rates posted keeps dwindling, no matter in what language combination, subject area, with regard to complexity ..., it isn't right and I suggested that Proz.com do something about it. Thus my proposal.

When rate ranges are no longer posted, the translator must make the effort to quote and the outsourcer will see those quotes first. As a professional on a professional site, I should be able to reply to job posts without being told how much I am supposed to charge without even having assessed the project by looking at the text, format, software needed, ..... I can't just let that go and think it has no effect on people visiting the site, outsourcers, and translators (especially new ones).

Siegfried Armbruster wrote:
I believe in practical things, "embrace change", "we have to charge higher rates" etc, are in my opinion not very practical.


What's wrong with "educating" newcomers about adequate rates? Every time a job goes for a pittance, it's a job lost to translators who stand their ground and continue to charge fair rates. And that should be all translators.


Siegfried Armbruster wrote:

And while we are at the topic, I believe in sharing (to empower my fellow collegues) and you can find links to Autosuggest files (also free) I created from the latest DGT TMs on my profile. http://www.proz.com/?sp=profile&eid_s=49165&sp_mode=ctab&tab_id=114

Sharing and education are in my opinion a good way to strengthen our position, but we have to start with it. I do know several colleagues who contributed here how have in the past or still are very active "doing practical" stuff, but we could do with more.


[Edited at 2017-01-31 14:06 GMT]


Nothing wrong with that, but at the same time, shifting quoting from outsourcers to translators on job boards acknowledges the way we should do business. Yes, there will still be unscrupulous agencies insisting on their awful prices, but their behavior will not be encouraged openly. Quite an important point. When this type of open rate range demand by outsourcers is gone from the site, it will also be a strong signal that Proz.com itself really stands behind the translators and professional/best practices, as is its declared purpose.


[Edited at 2017-01-31 14:46 GMT]


 
Lingua 5B
Lingua 5B  Identity Verified
Bosnia and Herzegovina
Local time: 11:19
Member (2009)
English to Croatian
+ ...
"Broken record" technique. Jan 31, 2017

Mirko Mainardi wrote:

Despite the bashing Bernhard (and others IMO undeservedly) received, I believe the initial points he made in this thread are not at all unreasonable and worthy of consideration.


It may seem futile that Bernhard keeps talking about the same rates issue over and over again, but it is precisely this "action" that makes a difference, it may stick to one or two person's mind (but probably more), and it will thus make a difference. Better than nothing. I can't really ignore the fact that he is using his time, effort and keyboard to repeat all this so many times - it's for the future generations to come, with new and fresh threads (yes, I know there are many old threads with this topic, but still I don't think it's futile or unnecessary). I want his threads there, out in the open public space and visible.


 
Mirko Mainardi
Mirko Mainardi  Identity Verified
Italy
Local time: 11:19
Member
English to Italian
"Ranting" vs "Informing" Jan 31, 2017

Siegfried Armbruster wrote:

Educate? Yes, but with action, not just with rants


Siegfried, you call it "ranting", I call it "informing", and raising awareness... That is precisely the "educational value of this topic".

What is the "educational value" of "counter-ranting" (using your own yardstick), then? Do you use the fora to discuss with others, or to accuse them of "ranting"?

You prefer to hold webinars on other matters and at the same time advertise your presence and services (here and in several other threads). Personally, I don't see how that is connected with the topic being discussed here, but still, that's fine and dandy by me, praiseworthy and definitely a good move, marketing-wise, but I'm not so sure how that grants you the moral clout to criticize and disparage others and their opinions.

BTW, still applying your POV to the matter, the famous "i-petition" of 2010 could be seen as "mass ranting"...


 
Mirko Mainardi
Mirko Mainardi  Identity Verified
Italy
Local time: 11:19
Member
English to Italian
Exactly Jan 31, 2017

Lingua 5B wrote:

It may seem futile that Bernhard keeps talking about the same rates issue over and over again, but it is precisely this "action" that makes a difference, it may stick to one or two person's mind (but probably more), and it will thus make a difference. Better than nothing. I can't really ignore the fact that he is using his time, effort and keyboard to repeat all this so many times - it's for the future generations to come, with new and fresh threads (yes, I know there are many old threads with this topic, but still I don't think it's futile or unnecessary). I want his threads there, out in the open public space and visible.


Seconded. Besides, how many times do we see threads started by new users asking how to start out, what rates they should be charging, whether a client's demands are reasonable or not, etc.

It means there's always someone out there trying to start out in this field, but who doesn't really know how to go about it, and coming here in search of info/advice, so, like you, I too believe this is not "ranting".


 
Lingua 5B
Lingua 5B  Identity Verified
Bosnia and Herzegovina
Local time: 11:19
Member (2009)
English to Croatian
+ ...
Broken record technique demonstration. Jan 31, 2017

Here is a little demonstration. Just replace the drug with low rates. The girl is you, the two boys are outsourcers:

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=916UbFLvxWc

According to this method, the more threads Bernhard opens about this topic, ie. the more repetitive he is, the more efficient his points will be.


 
MK2010
MK2010  Identity Verified
United States
Local time: 06:19
French to English
+ ...
FYI non-members can bid on jobs Feb 1, 2017

There were several instances in this thread where posters mentioned that only paying members of ProZ can bid on jobs. Not true. You have to pay to bid (i.e. put money in a wallet and pay 1 dollar per bid) but you do not have to buy a Pro membership to do so.

 
Mirko Mainardi
Mirko Mainardi  Identity Verified
Italy
Local time: 11:19
Member
English to Italian
New System Feb 1, 2017

MK2010 wrote:

There were several instances in this thread where posters mentioned that only paying members of ProZ can bid on jobs. Not true. You have to pay to bid (i.e. put money in a wallet and pay 1 dollar per bid) but you do not have to buy a Pro membership to do so.


I remember reading it in some threads introducing the recent changes of Nov 2016.

Quoting from the jobs FAQ: "Note: As of November 15th 2016, it will no longer be possible for non-members of the site to use cash to quote on jobs. In other words, the ability to reply to a job posting for which the specified contact method is to submit a quote through the site will be a members-only service. See the announcement: http://www.proz.com/topic/308410" - http://www.proz.com/faq/jobs/finding_jobs_at_proz_com.html#how_can_i_quote_

Reading the above it sounds as if only members can quote now, however, the option "Members-only until: X" is still there, as far as I can see.


 
Jacqueline Sieben
Jacqueline Sieben  Identity Verified
Netherlands
Local time: 11:19
Dutch to English
+ ...
Annual Salary Feb 1, 2017

I came across a "Fair Pay Rates Calculator" for freelance translators, which takes into account the annual salary of the country you work in and the hours/days you're planning to work in a year (among others). Hope I am allowed to share the link here: http://www.pactranz.com/blog/freelance-translator-rates-calculator/.

It's obvious that the country's stand
... See more
I came across a "Fair Pay Rates Calculator" for freelance translators, which takes into account the annual salary of the country you work in and the hours/days you're planning to work in a year (among others). Hope I am allowed to share the link here: http://www.pactranz.com/blog/freelance-translator-rates-calculator/.

It's obvious that the country's standard of living is a dominant factor when calculating fair rates...

[Edited at 2017-02-01 17:43 GMT]
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MK2010
MK2010  Identity Verified
United States
Local time: 06:19
French to English
+ ...
I stand corrected... Feb 1, 2017

Mirko Mainardi wrote:

MK2010 wrote:

There were several instances in this thread where posters mentioned that only paying members of ProZ can bid on jobs. Not true. You have to pay to bid (i.e. put money in a wallet and pay 1 dollar per bid) but you do not have to buy a Pro membership to do so.


I remember reading it in some threads introducing the recent changes of Nov 2016.

Quoting from the jobs FAQ: "Note: As of November 15th 2016, it will no longer be possible for non-members of the site to use cash to quote on jobs. In other words, the ability to reply to a job posting for which the specified contact method is to submit a quote through the site will be a members-only service. See the announcement: http://www.proz.com/topic/308410" - http://www.proz.com/faq/jobs/finding_jobs_at_proz_com.html#how_can_i_quote_

Reading the above it sounds as if only members can quote now, however, the option "Members-only until: X" is still there, as far as I can see.


Wonder if we get reimbursed the cash in our "wallet" that we non-members can no longer spend!


 
Bernhard Sulzer
Bernhard Sulzer  Identity Verified
United States
Local time: 06:19
English to German
+ ...
TOPIC STARTER
Add-on about submitting offers as a non-paying member Feb 11, 2017

MK2010 wrote:

Mirko Mainardi wrote:

MK2010 wrote:

There were several instances in this thread where posters mentioned that only paying members of ProZ can bid on jobs. Not true. You have to pay to bid (i.e. put money in a wallet and pay 1 dollar per bid) but you do not have to buy a Pro membership to do so.


I remember reading it in some threads introducing the recent changes of Nov 2016.

Quoting from the jobs FAQ: "Note: As of November 15th 2016, it will no longer be possible for non-paying members of the site to use cash to quote on jobs. In other words, the ability to reply to a job posting for which the specified contact method is to submit a quote through the site will be a members-only service. See the announcement: http://www.proz.com/topic/308410" - http://www.proz.com/faq/jobs/finding_jobs_at_proz_com.html#how_can_i_quote_

Reading the above it sounds as if only members can quote now, however, the option "Members-only until: X" is still there, as far as I can see.


Wonder if we get reimbursed the cash in our "wallet" that we non-members can no longer spend!


There is (I believe I am right) still one situation where one can "reply" to a job posting as a non-paying member, namely when the poster doesn't want you to use the "submit your quote" button but instead asks to be contacted directly by email and allows that email to become visible by clicking on it (which it should be) AND in addition does not require that the translator be a paying member of Proz.com. But there aren't too many of those postings.

[Edited at 2017-02-11 05:33 GMT]


 
José Henrique Lamensdorf
José Henrique Lamensdorf  Identity Verified
Brazil
Local time: 07:19
English to Portuguese
+ ...
In memoriam
It makes sense! Feb 11, 2017

Bernhard Sulzer wrote:

There is (I believe I am right) still one situation where one can "reply" to a job posting as a non-paying member, namely when the poster doesn't want you to use the "submit your quote" button but instead asks to be contacted directly by email and allows that email to become visible by clicking on it (which it should be) AND in addition does not require that the translator be a paying member of Proz.com. But there aren't too many of those postings.


Another possibility is when the job poster directs bidders to a URL that is either their general online application or a Google Docs form to register a bid for that job.

The entire setup makes sense, as Proz is a commercial enterprise, not a charity. It is expected to make a profit for those who invested in it. They have recalculated their "business equation", and consequently raised the membership fees and added some constraints to non-paying members.

It makes perfect sense! This model is used in numerous successful businesses.

Think of any of the most famous theme parks in the USA. The free user has access to the external area, can take snapshots, post them on Facebook, and get VISIBILITY - like translators on Proz. In that external area, they can buy stuff, go on some low-value ride, etc. The member pays an admission fee, which grants them access to the inside, so their pix on social media will have a somewhat higher value, e.g. standing side by side with Mickey or Minnie. Depending on the park, when members are inside, they'll have to pay extra - or not - for some rides or all of them. There are special day passes including all rides, the common passes requiring extra pay for some/most of them, and so on.

The analogy is, of course, not 100% perfect in every detail, however the similarity is striking. Proz has not reinvented the wheel, just adapted a proven business model.

The key point here is that "lame" or "boring" rides or shows equate to "unreasonable requests" in translation. They take up valuable space, and - most of all - if these are overwhelming, the trend will be to diminish the worth of the membership/admission fee.

Would you pay admission fees to take your kids to a zoo that only had domestic pets? The kids want to see lions, gorillas, elephants, tigers, etc. which are the high-paying translation jobs.

So I guess that Proz has a vested interest in eventually getting rid of the "poultry" taking space among the posted translation jobs. This is expected to happen naturally as they continue to reformulate their business equation.


 
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Can we please do away with unreasonable requests from outsourcers?







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