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Plus features: Announcing the SecurePRO™ program
Thread poster: Henry Dotterer
Henry Dotterer
Henry Dotterer
Local time: 21:30
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TOPIC STARTER
Should verifying LinkedIn (etc.) be put in before SecurePRO cards become viewable? Dec 21, 2016

Samuel Murray wrote:

What I found interesting about Miicard is their idea that you can connect your profiles on other sites to your verification card. In other words, when someone visits your Miicard card, they can also see which e.g. Facebook page is really yours, which LinkedIn profile is really yours, etc. Sometimes when I google the name of a translator, I may come across e.g. a LinkedIn profile that appears to be theirs, but there's no quick or easy way of telling for certain whether that LinkedIn profile is the profile of the translator that I'm googling for.

That is something we looked into during the development phase. I did not give this high priority, but it is something we planned to release later, and could do prior to making SecurePRO cards public, if there is a feeling that this would be worthwhile.

I now realise that the whole "identity verification" thing is not an end in itself but simply a stepping stone to the implementation of ProZ.com's new data confidentiality features.

Thank you for noticing - this is a key point!


 
Tom in London
Tom in London
United Kingdom
Local time: 01:30
Member (2008)
Italian to English
No idea Dec 21, 2016

The more I read these posts the less I understand what this thing is, what this "card" is, etc. Do you mean an actual CARD that I would put in my wallet? What for?

 
Henry Dotterer
Henry Dotterer
Local time: 21:30
SITE FOUNDER
TOPIC STARTER
The card is digital only Dec 21, 2016

Tom in London wrote:

The more I read these posts the less I understand what this thing is, what this "card" is, etc. Do you mean an actual CARD that I would put in my wallet? What for?

Hi Tom. No, it is a digital/virtual card only.


 
Tom in London
Tom in London
United Kingdom
Local time: 01:30
Member (2008)
Italian to English
? Dec 21, 2016

Henry Dotterer wrote:

Tom in London wrote:

The more I read these posts the less I understand what this thing is, what this "card" is, etc. Do you mean an actual CARD that I would put in my wallet? What for?

Hi Tom. No, it is a digital/virtual card only.


And what is a digital card?


 
Maija Cirule
Maija Cirule  Identity Verified
Latvia
Local time: 03:30
German to English
+ ...
Sophisticated thing not for mediocre minds Dec 21, 2016

Tom in London wrote:

Henry Dotterer wrote:

Tom in London wrote:

The more I read these posts the less I understand what this thing is, what this "card" is, etc. Do you mean an actual CARD that I would put in my wallet? What for?

Hi Tom. No, it is a digital/virtual card only.


And what is a digital card?


Hi Tom,
Methinks that this is a useless and pointless thingy. I am still waiting to see some tangible benefit arising from my invested 50 bucks:(


[Edited at 2016-12-21 19:31 GMT]


 
Tom in London
Tom in London
United Kingdom
Local time: 01:30
Member (2008)
Italian to English
Wow Dec 21, 2016

Maija Cirule wrote:

Methinks that this is a useless and pointless thingy. I am still waiting to see some tangible benefit arising from my invested 50 bucks:(


Wow - is that what it costs?


 
Henry Dotterer
Henry Dotterer
Local time: 21:30
SITE FOUNDER
TOPIC STARTER
A little courtesy, please, Tom Dec 21, 2016

Tom in London wrote:
Henry Dotterer wrote:
Tom in London wrote:
The more I read these posts the less I understand what this thing is, what this "card" is, etc. Do you mean an actual CARD that I would put in my wallet? What for?

Hi Tom. No, it is a digital/virtual card only.

And what is a digital card?

Tom, at the start of this thread I asked posters to limit themselves to one or two posts. You have now posted fifteen times. You have refused to watch the video, so you remain uninformed. Please show a little courtesy.


 
Steven Segaert
Steven Segaert
Estonia
Local time: 03:30
Member (2012)
English to Dutch
+ ...
Unverified? Dec 22, 2016

After reading all this, I guess my main question is: "Will I have to pay to get rid of the mention 'unverified' on my profile?"

Or will there be another way not to have that word featuring anywhere on a page that can be seen by potential clients?


 
Henry Dotterer
Henry Dotterer
Local time: 21:30
SITE FOUNDER
TOPIC STARTER
No, Steven Dec 22, 2016

Steven Segaert wrote:

After reading all this, I guess my main question is: "Will I have to pay to get rid of the mention 'unverified' on my profile?"

Or will there be another way not to have that word featuring anywhere on a page that can be seen by potential clients?

Please don't become a Plus subscriber only to have the word 'unverified' removed from the default display in your SecurePRO card. It is not the point of the program. Besides, we're reworking the display on the card based on the feedback here, and it will look different shortly. At least wait until you see the revised look.

That said, the point remains that it will be apparent to anyone visiting multiple profiles that this person has obtained third-party verification of identity information, while that person has not. At the end of the day, there is not much that can be done about that. I trust that you all can understand the distinction.


 
Bernhard Sulzer
Bernhard Sulzer  Identity Verified
United States
Local time: 21:30
English to German
+ ...
Isn't my identity already verified? Dec 22, 2016

Henry Dotterer wrote:

Steven Segaert wrote:

After reading all this, I guess my main question is: "Will I have to pay to get rid of the mention 'unverified' on my profile?"

Or will there be another way not to have that word featuring anywhere on a page that can be seen by potential clients?

Please don't become a Plus subscriber only to have the word 'unverified' removed from the default display in your SecurePRO card. It is not the point of the program. Besides, we're reworking the display on the card based on the feedback here, and it will look different shortly. At least wait until you see the revised look.

That said, the point remains that it will be apparent to anyone visiting multiple profiles that this person has obtained third-party verification of identity information, while that person has not. At the end of the day, there is not much that can be done about that. I trust that you all can understand the distinction.


Just a question Henry,

Why would my identity not be considered verified already? I paid for membership via a credit card which was registered in my name with my address. I also have my picture on my profile page, feedback from customers, am a Kudoz editor, and earned the Certified pro badge. And I've been a member since 2006. You can also call me.

[Edited at 2016-12-22 16:29 GMT]


 
Henry Dotterer
Henry Dotterer
Local time: 21:30
SITE FOUNDER
TOPIC STARTER
Yes Bernhard, you, and many other people, have already had your identity verified Dec 22, 2016

Bernhard Sulzer wrote:
Why would my identity not be considered verified already?

Yes. What we have verified up to now (in over 60,000 cases) are names. Your name is considered verified.

I paid for membership via a credit card which was registered in my name with my address.

Right, we used that to verify your name. But we recorded verification only of name, i.e., the fact that the name on your credit card matched the name in your profile.

By the way, I expect verification of name to remain the most important part of identity verification going forward. There are instances in which LSPs, usually complying with end-client requirements, need to verify, for example, that candidates are citizens of a given country (yes! some government, military and other work requires that). But the main thing end clients need to know, as a foundation of security, is that it is known who is being given access to their content.

I also have my picture on my profile page, feedback from customers, am a Kudoz editor, and earned the Certified pro badge. And I've been a member since 2006. You can also call me.

None of these have or will be used in relation to identity verification.


 
Bernhard Sulzer
Bernhard Sulzer  Identity Verified
United States
Local time: 21:30
English to German
+ ...
A few more thoughts Dec 22, 2016

Just a few points I find important.

Henry Dotterer wrote:

Bernhard Sulzer wrote:
Why would my identity not be considered verified already?

Yes. What we have verified up to now (in over 60,000 cases) are names. Your name is considered verified.

I paid for membership via a credit card which was registered in my name with my address.

Right, we used that to verify your name. But we recorded verification only of name, i.e., the fact that the name on your credit card matched the name in your profile.


If I understand you correctly, you are saying none of that ensures that it's really Bernhard Sulzer that is featured in the profile, or, put less extremely, a prospective client might not trust that they are really dealing with the person featured in the profile, even after they have talked to the person and seen the picture, and that there could still be someone else hiding behind that profile, name, picture, feedback, etc. Or, that they simply don't trust the identity on Proz.com unless it is verified by a third party that is not Proz.com. So, that part is all about proving that the name/person featured in the profile actual belongs to/is that person. I'm not concerned with regard to myself, because I still think that the amount of verification already done by Proz.com plus the whole history of my business transactions and info on my additional website, Facebook and LinkedIn page make it quite likely that it's really me. But I would invite prospective clients who are concerned to call me or visit me online via a video conference. But they might still think I am lying. But in my case, probably not.

But let's say the prospective client is looking at someone's profile that is new and they want to work with that person and that person displays the SecurePRO card and other new features you talked about in your video ("able to transfer data completely encrypted" etc.) but there is no feedback or not much feedback, and possibly other things missing from the profile, then how can the prospective client be sure that the card really does guarantee that everything was verified by a professional third party and the person in the profile is really able to do everything they say they can do? Will it be disclosed who did the verifying?

I would also ask how the verifier makes sure they don't deal with a fraudster who submits false documents? I admit I don't know much about these third-party verification processes, but maybe you can speak a little more to how these verifications can really be trusted?
And one more point concerning that: I really would feel uncomfortable having to send my personal documents off for verification just for this program. The only time I show these documents is usually in person. For running my business, I trust that my public persona and presentation instills enough trust to contact me.

A question concerning new search criteria: if I am convinced (and anybody could be) that I can transfer encrypted data securely, will I be able to specify that and be found accordingly even if I don't have the plus package? I am asking because this has not necessarily to do with the verification process?


Henry Dotterer wrote:
By the way, I expect verification of name to remain the most important part of identity verification going forward. There are instances in which LSPs, usually complying with end-client requirements, need to verify, for example, that candidates are citizens of a given country (yes! some government, military and other work requires that). But the main thing end clients need to know, as a foundation of security, is that it is known who is being given access to their content.


I would not want to participate in the citizenship verification for the purposes here. Again, it would entail sending my personal documents (or certified copies .. wouldn't they need to be certified?) and I am not comfortable getting verified for this program and I don't want that to be a feature in my profile. I also think that this is a point of confidentiality with regard to my own person that should not be a feature. I don't mind if a prospective client wants to ask me about it. I would deal with this issue in a confidential matter between myself and the client. But in general, your citizenship is not necessarily a guarantee for the quality of your work, especially as a translator. On the other hand, native language might be, but even that is debatable.

Henry Dotterer wrote:
I also have my picture on my profile page, feedback from customers, am a Kudoz editor, and earned the Certified pro badge. And I've been a member since 2006. You can also call me.

None of these have or will be used in relation to identity verification.


But in a way they are being used already by clients and prospective clients for that purpose. If I were a prospective client, I would feel much more comfortable calling someone and asking them pertinent questions regarding their services and person.
I hope I come across not as a naysayer but someone who is concerned about my personal matters and information for which I don't see a need to be revealed to a third-party verifier in order to run my business.

And with regard to the confidentiality issue. In your video you rightly said that a lot of agencies have NDAs ready to be signed. I don't mind them if they are to the point of confidentiality. But many times, these "contracts" include inappropriate points that have to do with competition and with losing all rights that you as a translator should actually claim, i.e. intellectual property rights. There are many issues that need to be discussed but again, I am open to any type of confidentiality that respects the translator's rights as well. In principle, I simply do not disclose to third parties any information that is exchanged between me and my clients except as demanded by US law (in my case). I offer my own confidentiality statement to clients that have no concerns, just to be sure. But additional demands such as destruction of data and TM or prohibition of use of language I created are complex issues that will have to be discussed with each and every client separately and must not break any laws.

[Edited at 2016-12-22 18:53 GMT]


 
Henry Dotterer
Henry Dotterer
Local time: 21:30
SITE FOUNDER
TOPIC STARTER
To put it simply... Dec 22, 2016

Now you are thinking along the lines of the program, Bernhard. Thanks for watching the video.

In discussing how it will be verified, for example, that a person is equipped to, and knows how to carry out end-to-end encrypted file transfer, we would be getting ahead of ourselves.

To put it all in simple terms, please consider a very straightforward case where an end client is requiring, in written agreement with a translation company, that the identity of each translator
... See more
Now you are thinking along the lines of the program, Bernhard. Thanks for watching the video.

In discussing how it will be verified, for example, that a person is equipped to, and knows how to carry out end-to-end encrypted file transfer, we would be getting ahead of ourselves.

To put it all in simple terms, please consider a very straightforward case where an end client is requiring, in written agreement with a translation company, that the identity of each translator involved in a project be verified.

(In this case, the end client is not concerned with your profile; they just want to know that the LSPs knows who will be given access to their content. The reasons why an end client would have this requirement, while perhaps interesting to understand, are to some degree secondary. Is it risk management? Legal requirement? A basis for accountability? It only matters so much. The point is, there is an LSP with work to outsource that comes with this requirement, and freelancers can either choose to accept it, or not.)

In such cases, the SecurePRO program may, depending on the exact nature of the agreement, make it incrementally easier for both freelancers and LSPs to achieve compliance with the end-client requirement.

Is this basic aspect of the program clear to everyone?

And by the way, whenever one is talking about security, nothing is absolutely certain; it is always a matter of degrees. When you understand this, it makes sense that third-party verification companies tend to express levels of confidence, scores, etc., and do not tend to say things like, "This person is definitely so-and-so."
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Henry Dotterer
Henry Dotterer
Local time: 21:30
SITE FOUNDER
TOPIC STARTER
Display of SecurePRO card has been changed Dec 22, 2016

The default display of the SecurePRO card has been changed. Now, data that has been verified will be listed first, data that has been provided but not verified will be listed second, and nothing will be said about data that has not been entered.

Please let me know whether or not you think this is an improvement. We can change it back, or change it again.


 
Christopher Schröder
Christopher Schröder
United Kingdom
Member (2011)
Swedish to English
+ ...
Still failing to see the point Dec 22, 2016

I work mainly with central banks, govt agencies, banks and blue chip companies and I've never been asked to prove my identity.

I'm not entirely sure why it would be a problem if I wasn't who I say I am as long as I translate the text properly.

Me actually being me, like signing an NDA, doesn't necessarily mean I won't sell secrets to the enemy, leave printouts in my rubbish or fail to lock the door or install security software.

And the military will surely
... See more
I work mainly with central banks, govt agencies, banks and blue chip companies and I've never been asked to prove my identity.

I'm not entirely sure why it would be a problem if I wasn't who I say I am as long as I translate the text properly.

Me actually being me, like signing an NDA, doesn't necessarily mean I won't sell secrets to the enemy, leave printouts in my rubbish or fail to lock the door or install security software.

And the military will surely have their own vetting systems anyway.

Perhaps this is just some weird US thing. It doesn't seem to offer any value here in Europe.

But that's cool, I can just not participate.

Just as long as it's not another way of randomly discriminating against those not willing to pay for extras.
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