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Was I wrong ?
Thread poster: Salima Post
Stuart Dowell
Stuart Dowell  Identity Verified
Poland
Local time: 19:52
Member (2007)
Polish to English
+ ...
Storm in a tea cup Aug 30, 2008

A lot of the posters are saying that you were wrong in how you handled the client from the start and you should move on and find better clients.

I think that the optimum strategy here was to refuse politely the low paid rush job and only accept jobs at the rate you were receiving before, which I guess you were happy with.

Maybe they are not the best agency in the world, but you could have had a few jobs out of them while searching for better customers, or maybe they w
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A lot of the posters are saying that you were wrong in how you handled the client from the start and you should move on and find better clients.

I think that the optimum strategy here was to refuse politely the low paid rush job and only accept jobs at the rate you were receiving before, which I guess you were happy with.

Maybe they are not the best agency in the world, but you could have had a few jobs out of them while searching for better customers, or maybe they would learn your downside limits as regards rates and the relationship have gone on to be long lasting.

The current situation is that your've blown off a client that was giving you jobs at a rate you accepted at a time when you are trying to build experience.

Stuart
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Kevin Lossner
Kevin Lossner  Identity Verified
Portugal
Local time: 18:52
German to English
+ ...
Priorities Aug 30, 2008

morgan17 wrote:
... my time is precious and I should concentrate on better things such as working on my profile.



That would be a good start. For God's sake, DON'T emphasize your lack of experience in your revised profile as you do now. If you only have three "strong assets", then highlight those and only those in the best light you can and project a positive, confident message. I'm sorry if my previous post on this thread was rather cranky, but I find it personally upsetting how many good people put up with abuse like that, because they don't have the confidence to demand the respect that even a bum deserves. You might be a great translator or a complete washout for quality - I have no way of judging that, and it's irrelevant to me anyway. But I see enough examples of total linguistic losers with an effective approach to marketing who make a good living and competent translators with lousy marketing skills who struggle to see that getting the business model sorted out ASAP is really the only way to go if you are serious about the profession.

As for the idea that you should stick around and enjoy the abuse while leisurely shopping for new clients, I'm not sure that's such a hot idea either unless you are literally starving. You'll make faster progress I think without their foul wind in your sails. And don't load up on new customers at low rates. You may find that they eat up all your time so that you don't have the time or energy to look for better ones. I'm sure there are many people with such "legacy" issues.


 
Tom in London
Tom in London
United Kingdom
Local time: 18:52
Member (2008)
Italian to English
no logic Aug 30, 2008

I've never understood the logic of lowering your rate if a client gives you regular work. Can someone explain it to me?

 
Samuel Murray
Samuel Murray  Identity Verified
Netherlands
Local time: 19:52
Member (2006)
English to Afrikaans
+ ...
My opinion Aug 30, 2008

morgan17 wrote:
After all, I have helped them on several occasions with a last minute work without charging extra. Do you think that it was wrong of me to ask the reason why the rates were lower than usual with a same day delivery? Is it wrong of me to say that I will charge extra next time? What can I tell them in my reply?


Your problem is that you believe in some universal sense of fairness where kindness is repaid with money.

Sure, being nice to a client and going out of your way is a good way to curry favour with the client, but I think you should do so for altruistic reasons only, or else you'll be disappointed if you expect some sort of monetary kickback.

How to reply? Tell them that you didn't mean to be rude, and that you were merely surprised at the rate offered. Tell them they're welcome to send you more work, but since you're now getting more work from other sources as well, you may be less in a position to help out at last minute. Make sure it doesn't sound like a threat, i.e. "if you don't pay more, I won't go the extra mile any longer".


 
Kevin Lossner
Kevin Lossner  Identity Verified
Portugal
Local time: 18:52
German to English
+ ...
The economics of bankruptcy Aug 30, 2008

Tom in London wrote:
I've never understood the logic of lowering your rate if a client gives you regular work. Can someone explain it to me?


When I worked in industry, this was referred to as losing money on every unit, but making it up on volume

I'm afraid I've come across terribly rude on the phone at times when some stranger at an agency calls me up with an interesting job, balks at the rate quoted and then promises "regular work" if I just do it cheaper. After I finish laughing in the receiver, I usually calm down and politely ask why I would want to do that when I turn down work every day at higher rates. The idea of "volume discounts" of any kind for anyone who is busy is simply daft. The idea of discounts based on a worthless promise is even more daft.

I have only cut my rate once is eight years and kept it low, and I did so of my own accord, catching the outsourcer by surprise. This was a company that is so easy to work for and so pleasant that I am at a loss for words to describe the fun I have with them, and they pay the same day an invoice is received. Consistently. For years. I wanted some way to express my gratitude for such excellent treatment, so I "imposed" a small line rate reduction, which was received with grateful surprise. However, the rate was still above my average at that time, so I wasn't really losing money and in the end my average rate increased, because this high payer sent more work my way.

The moral of the story is that if you are foolish enough to give discounts, do so on your own terms!


 
Salima Post
Salima Post
United States
Local time: 14:52
English to French
TOPIC STARTER
You are right Aug 30, 2008

Ligia Dias Costa wrote:

Of course, you are not wrong. Agencies are free to offer prices and freelancers are free to accept them or not. Some offer higher prices and some lower. It is a free market and agencies are playing their part: buying at the lowest price possible and selling at the highest price possible.
My advice: try to find one agency with bigs amounts of work to give you a steady income. An then, look for better paid jobs - there are lots in the market, mostly from end clients.

Good luck!


That is my plan. Thanks


 
Charlie Bavington
Charlie Bavington  Identity Verified
Local time: 18:52
French to English
I believe.... Aug 30, 2008

Tom in London wrote:

I've never understood the logic of lowering your rate if a client gives you regular work. Can someone explain it to me?

.... that it works on the assumption, from the client, that either they are the only client you have, or at the very least, that you have some free capacity on account of the rates you charge.

After that, it becomes a simple point of economics.
If you drop your prices, then demand will go up, from that client.
The question is, can you meet that demand?
If you can't (i.e you're already busy all the time) then it's not a point worth considering, obviously.

However, if the agency is your only client and says that, at 0.10 EUR/word, it's only gonna be able to give you about 2,000 words a week, but that if you drop to, say 0.07/word it'll keep you more or less busy all you want.... then that is an example of the logic behind their suggesting that you drop your rate - your overall revenue, if they keep to their word (and for 0.07, it seems likely they would, all other things being equal) would actually rise.

Of course, it all depends on the individual circs, but that is the idea.


 
Viktoria Gimbe
Viktoria Gimbe  Identity Verified
Canada
Local time: 14:52
English to French
+ ...
Dependence Aug 30, 2008

Charlie Bavington wrote:

I believe that it works on the assumption, from the client, that either they are the only client you have, or at the very least, that you have some free capacity on account of the rates you charge.


Either that, or the client thinks you are desperate and knows he has the upper hand. This latter prospect is the worst of all - and this is where many newbies fail.

The problem with what you are saying, Charlie, is that when a translator who normally charges 10 cents per word is busy full time at 7 cents per word, they are too busy to find clients who will keep them busy at 10 cents per word. Maybe the overall revenue will go up initially, but it will stall there instead of eventually reaching the target revenue.

[Edited at 2008-08-30 15:54]


 
Kevin Lossner
Kevin Lossner  Identity Verified
Portugal
Local time: 18:52
German to English
+ ...
EXACTLY!!! Aug 30, 2008

Viktoria Gimbe wrote:
The problem with what you are saying, Charlie, is that when a translator who normally charges 10 cents per word is busy full time at 7 cents per word, they are too busy to find clients who will keep them busy at 10 cents per word. Maybe the overall revenue will go up initially, but it will stall there instead of eventually reaching the target revenue.



And that's the trap that too many people fall into. My partner was working her tail off years ago with hardly enough time for life or studies and certainly no time to look for better clients, because her customers took far too much advantage of her low rates. Over the past 5 years those rates have gone up 50 to 100% (occasionally more), and she's still overbooked. Simple business logic says she's still too cheap. But rates do not go up by themselves - you have to take the time to make your case to existing clients in many cases, and you have to find the time to look for or accept new ones. Loading up on underpaid work is totally counterproductive in this regard.


 
Charlie Bavington
Charlie Bavington  Identity Verified
Local time: 18:52
French to English
Quite so Aug 30, 2008

Viktoria Gimbe wrote:
The problem with what you are saying, Charlie, is that when a translator who normally charges 10 cents per word is busy full time at 7 cents per word, they are too busy to find clients who will keep them busy at 10 cents per word. Maybe the overall revenue will go up initially, but it will stall there instead of eventually reaching the target revenue.


The original question was simply the logic behind agencies telling you you'd be better off if you dropped your prices, which I believe I explained adequately. At no point whatsoever did I say I agreed with such an approach, and I would hope that the person to whom I responded has the intelligence to work out for himself the consequences of leaving oneself with little or no time to find clients paying higher rates.

Put another way, I was explaining why an agency might make such a suggestion, and in no way recommending acceptance. And there is always a middle ground, where one could accept some of the extra work at a lower rate, thereby increasing total income, while leaving time free to persue other avenues....

You have to draw the line in these explanations somewhere.
Or are we to point out the potential lifestyle benefits to earning more money - explain to people that they may be able to afford a (nicer) car, or a longer holiday, or even 2 holidays.
Or perhaps we need to point out that in some countries, the marginal tax rate increases beyond certain levels of income so that marginal income per hour will drop at some point if you accept the agency's proposal?

I think not. I'll just stick to answering the questions asked and hope that that is sufficient to prod the asker along the path to deducing the rest for him/herself.


[Edited at 2008-08-30 22:14]


 
Carla Guerreiro
Carla Guerreiro  Identity Verified
France
Local time: 19:52
Member (2006)
French to Portuguese
+ ...
Direct clients Aug 31, 2008

As Alfredo says, you should look for direct clients. They are much eager to accept your rates just as they are.

Another thing: try to make a good advertising campaign on the web, like creating YOUR OWN website (I can give you the reference by mail, if you wish) and create your ad in websites with free ads. It's time to get a good visibility online, in order to get direct clients.

With best regards,
Carla


 
John Rawlins
John Rawlins  Identity Verified
Spain
Local time: 19:52
Spanish to English
+ ...
the nature of brokering Sep 1, 2008

I live in Valencia in Spain. We have a lot of oranges and many are exported to the rest of Europe and beyond.

Many of these orange sales are made by small multi-lingual brokers - and I have an English friend who is a broker.

He agrees prices with farmers after long and often heated telephone discussions. Having made a deal, he tells me that if he has the slightest doubt that the farmer may have taken a lower price - then he knows that he paid too much.

He
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I live in Valencia in Spain. We have a lot of oranges and many are exported to the rest of Europe and beyond.

Many of these orange sales are made by small multi-lingual brokers - and I have an English friend who is a broker.

He agrees prices with farmers after long and often heated telephone discussions. Having made a deal, he tells me that if he has the slightest doubt that the farmer may have taken a lower price - then he knows that he paid too much.

He is a very good broker and earns a good living.

The point about being a broker, he says, is that the profits are always for him - and the losses are always for the farmer or cooperative.

Brokering words is the same as oranges.



[Edited at 2008-09-01 16:21]
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George Hopkins
George Hopkins
Local time: 19:52
Swedish to English
Fetching price Sep 1, 2008

John Rawlins (2008-09-01) is altogether right – translators are ten a penny, and at every sign of a recession more of them appear on the market to lower the fetching price.
Very few agencies are worth working for.
However, if you are good the word will eventually spread and you will get regular direct customers.


 
Salima Post
Salima Post
United States
Local time: 14:52
English to French
TOPIC STARTER
Never thought ... Sep 6, 2008

Kevin Fulton wrote:

The agency has already taken advantage of your inexperience and wants to exploit you further. There are lots of good agencies, but unfortunately it takes a while to find them.


that I could be used as a "doormat" for these agencies but I see your point.

Thanks


 
Salima Post
Salima Post
United States
Local time: 14:52
English to French
TOPIC STARTER
Thanks Sep 6, 2008

First, I would like to thank you all for your comments. They were an eye opener on many levels. I have learned from my inexperience and thanks to you, I am able to see where I went "wrong".

I will work on these points to increase my chances in finding better paid jobs.

I will work on my proz file and improve/update my CV so it doesn't show my lack of experience. And I will have my own website as well.

I will study in one or two areas of expertise in orde
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First, I would like to thank you all for your comments. They were an eye opener on many levels. I have learned from my inexperience and thanks to you, I am able to see where I went "wrong".

I will work on these points to increase my chances in finding better paid jobs.

I will work on my proz file and improve/update my CV so it doesn't show my lack of experience. And I will have my own website as well.

I will study in one or two areas of expertise in order to find a niche and thus to help me to look for new direct clients. What will be your advice on this?

In addition, when contacted by new agencies, I will not give any discount on my rates.


Thank you all for your comments.
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