| Pages in topic: [1 2] > | (Tax) bureaucracy in Spain: save me! Thread poster: Lia Fail (X)
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Lia Fail (X) 
Spain
Local time: 09:32
Spanish to English
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I wonder if people who've both lived and worked in Spain and elsewhere as freelancers can give me insights here, but (beginning of rant), I'm S-O fed up of the Spanish tax authorities.
One of the consistent problems is the Certificados. Here am I am, piggy in the middle, trying to get them in in time for the 30 June deadline, and invariably a few are missing or wrong in "my" books. Today I said "F*** it, pay Hacienda the xxx euros difference, I just don't want to know!" (my time is... See more I wonder if people who've both lived and worked in Spain and elsewhere as freelancers can give me insights here, but (beginning of rant), I'm S-O fed up of the Spanish tax authorities.
One of the consistent problems is the Certificados. Here am I am, piggy in the middle, trying to get them in in time for the 30 June deadline, and invariably a few are missing or wrong in "my" books. Today I said "F*** it, pay Hacienda the xxx euros difference, I just don't want to know!" (my time is literally money, theirs no).
I just wonder what's the point, for two reasons.
First of all, there's often a "desfase" (unless I close my accounts 3-4 or whatever months before the year end): I declare in one year becuase I billed in that year, my client declares the next year becuase they paid in that year. If the bill is a large one, then we're really desfasados. If it happens to be 2 big bills ... wow!
Second, I declare and produce invoices for a particular year; now, why would I invent invoices becuase, technically, for each deduction, there's a corresponding payment to Hacienda on my behalf. So why bother with Certs, all we have do do, Hacienda and me, is square up things between us?
Except, of course that there's that damn defase I referred to earlier. So instead of this nightmare, why doesn't Hacienda simply issue a decree saying that all bills must be paid within the year of issue - and buinesses being businesses, we'd all work it out so that (just like university budgets) bills would get issued and paid within a particular tax year or we'd agree to postpone billing as mutual favours to avoid the Hacienda nightmare.
The thing is, this defase just renders the whole concept of a Cert worthless, last year I had about 6000 euros amiss becuase 2 large bills happened to be overlooked or missed - I declared them one year, the clients declared them the next. Last year I implemented a policy of closing accounts in mid November, now I think I have to apply a policy of negotiating when I'll get paid - difficult with university accountds depratments, which are distant (they are not my clients, authors are) and typically inflexible. But, hell, I'm just going to have to do it!
Not only that, I'm consistently provided with contradictiory information. Last year, I declared what I billed, this year, what the Certs said. Last year I was told one thing, this year another. Hacienda said last year I had to declare what I billed (I asked people here and they explained that other people justify paying in the tax at the moment of paying the bill, even if another tax year - but Hacienda never admitted this other possibility), but my gestor this year said, for the sake of peace and quiet, that the easiest thing was declare what the certs said. So between the tax authorities, the supposed interpreters (gestors) and myself, I simply don't know what's right and find it hard to be even consistent, as nobody seems to know the rules. Last year there was a desfase of 6000 euros, this year the goal posts were shifted (I simply don't know where they are supposed to be), and there was a far smaller desfase, but all in all, with all thse defases, something's going to come undone at some point. I don't see why I can't simply declare what I bill in a year and let the late payers carry the can. After all, there is an EU directive about payment in 30 days. I can't build in - allowing for the genuine misfiling of the odd bill - estimates about when I get paid. As it is, I'm trying my damndest to avoid desfases by closing accounts early.
What strikes me about my gestoria is the fear of god they have of Hacienda. For example, I have a well documented case of having been forced to leave my fiscal adress for reasons utterly beyond my control and backed up by legal evidence. The reaction to my wanting to state a case for deducting basic and essential business expenses from another address was to "keep mum", declare them first and see if they want an explanation after. To my mind that - apart from not being entirely "honest" - reflects a totally uncompassionate attitude on Hacienda's part. I can only explain it by a kind of paranoia which I think is historical and to do with evasion on a vast level in the past.
I have other bugbears with Hacienda, to do with admissible expenses when I travel to meetings , conferences etc, and to do with their fines (a wrong VAT number, 100 euros, it's not as if, as someone else in one of these forums pointed out-very pained and with whom I sympathised totally-there's actually defrauding going on!). I was shocked at the amount of the first fine I paid to Hacienda (I was on holidays, so didn't receive the notification, hard cheese... Hacienda is one of VERY few ES bodies that IS ON THE BL**** BALL in August (see below)...ha! In a country where August simply doesn't exist on the working calendar; cerrado por vacaciones.
And as for the "figure" of "autonomos", we seem not to need cars, hotels, CPD, business lunches, etc. There seems to be a perception of us as being some kind of cheapo cheats who do some kind of dodgy work in a back room over the Internet. Maybe I need to set myslef up as a limited company? In fact as I write, I simply have a gut feeling I would get to write off a hell of a lot more of what are real business-related expenses.
I suspect, and maybe others could confirm this is that "autonomas" in Spain are treated with far less tolerance than "PYMEs", although I often see them as lumped together, yet in many instances (banks, for example), I'm classified as a "particular", and not as a "business". What was especially revelaing was that this year I looked into gettting a "linea de credito"; I simply could not believe the palaver and the costs: I was even going to be charged every month for NOT using the assigned credit in a given month. I imagine that it would have been cheaper to get credit for a car or even a holiday - neither of which creates wealth.
And by the way, does anyone remember that absolutely insane Hacienda requirement of agencies for all their subcontractors to sign on year after year and declare that they were up-to-date with their taxes, and do so, furthermore, through snail mail? From the beginning I just said "f*** that", becuase it wasn't as if I was working enough for any agency for it to be worth the trouble, it just seemed SO ridiculous. In the end only one or two harped on about it, and since I didn't care too much to have them and all that palaver as well, well, I just ignored it. Hey Hacienda, that seems to have died a death! Not surprised, it was a totally crap idea to begin with and could only have been thought up by fossilised civil servants (just like the Certificados).
Not to mention the absolute b******s sending on a claim re 2007 when I and my gestor are in the throes of the 2008 declaration - with the quarterly VAT declaration imminent. So - they take a year to query a declaration, they land it on me when I'm dealing with their stupid Certificados, my gestor is up the top of teh dandruff - and I'll get fined 100 euros if I don't reply in 10 days!
Another issue that bugs me is how I feel I have to have 4000- 5000 in the bank to cushion me against late payers and other ups and downs. I don't think i should be taxed on that.
And finally, I'm "autonomo" in everything. Just contrast this with the Spanish civil servant who's so cushioned (in a labour market that is (dis)structured so that different kinds of workers have completely different sets of rights: civil servants, private sector workers costing a lot to lay off, private sector temporary workers with no rights worth talking of, and the sin papeles ... oh, and the autonomos).
The autonomo is expected to be completely autonomous, in their provision for both the present and the future. There is no unemployment pay, and sick leave and pension pays are minimal (about the equivalent of the minimum wage). There are no SS deductions that take into account that they are starting out or reductions that take into account difficult circumstances. Freelancers are also supposed to be autonomous in terms of the business risks they assume, that is, they are on their own if their business turns down (no help or aid), yet they pay the full whack when times are good - as if times could never be bad. It's hard a for a one-person labour-intensive business to actually earn a huge amount of money (they could only do that by "exploiting" other workers and making profit from the labour of others, rather than one), in Spain, and especially considering the provisons fro contingencies and the future they need to build in.
The fact is, though, we are what every government wants, we are entrepreneurs, we have independent spirits, we go it alone, we take the good with the bad. I for one, like my autonomy, just I wish that what we do, our independent and self-reliant spirit and what we save the state, was a little better recognized: we are the other extreme from the mollycoddled civil servant. What kills me is the mentality difference; I'll say no more, other than that there are people who want to like and enjoy and feel fulfilled by their work and others who simply see the "gravy train". We bear a disdproportionate load: we are loaded on what we earn, but when we don't earn we get no concessions, deductions or incentives. And we never get "pats on the back".
I can't see the point of Hacienda being open in August, whereas I CAN see the point of loads of other places "functioning" (at best it's a skeleton staff, consisting of a receptionist), As someone who's lived here for over 20 years I can tell you that when it comes to "tramites", depending on where you live , well, write off the best part of Dec with its puentes and Christmas, and foget about Town Council or the Courts or Hacienda before 7/8/9 Jan, forget a wide band of time around Easter, especially if puentes kick in, don't forget local fiestas and the build-up and post- fiesta, and write off August (along with the buiild up and the estres pos vacacional). Leaving us with 6-8 months of real availability: These people aren't autonomos, they're funcionarios. Which one of you autonomos has only been available and truly functional for 8 months last year?
(end of rabid rant ... almost).
Can someone point me to a more sympathetic country for freelancers, becuase I think I want to escpae this nightmare - if I can? My brother (self-employed) in Australia gives me the distinct impression that there people can go into the local tax office and slam their fist on the counter and pose questions liek "what's the sense of this" and "don't you see I've got a legal clainm that .." and "what the hell is this, can't you see how ...", and get a solution. I know humans in Hacienda here, but they are totally slaves to that number-crunching machine that coughs up pages of reclamations and declamations and insinuations and defamations and affirmations and adjucations, sent by certified post and demanding a reply in 10 days at the risk of a fine of 100 euros. (like the Town Council, incidentally, I've had an "issue" since over 3 years ago, the massive amount of paper spewed out contrasts with a massive inertia by the people).
PS. Forgive me if sentences don't make sense and point them out, becuase my mouse is suudenly marking far larger tracts than I intend it to - with disastrous results:-)
[Edited at 2009-06-30 03:18 GMT]
[Edited at 2009-06-30 04:10 GMT] ▲ Collapse
| | | | | Hacienda is God | Jun 30, 2009 |
Lia, I completely and totally agree with you: entrepreneurship and freelancers in Spain exist DESPITE the Government and not thanks to them. What a great country we would be if we did not have this kind of Government!!!!
Lia Fail wrote:
First of all, there's often a "desfase" (unless I close my accounts 3-4 or whatever months before the year end): I declare in one year becuase I billed in that year, my client declares the next year becuase they paid in that year. If the bill is a large one, then we're really desfasados. If it happens to be 2 big bills ... wow!
Indeed this happens to us all the time. Our customers pay 30 or sometimes 60 days later, but we have to pay Hacienda based on the date of issuance of our invoice. So every quarter we end up having to pay Hacienda a pile of money we don't have because we used our customer's payments to pay the previous quarter's taxes. I might be exaggerating, but that's how I feel every time, so I must be right somehow.
Lia Fail wrote:
What strikes me about my gestoria is the fear of god they have of Hacienda.
Indeed. Our gestoría would not let us add the invoice of a lunch to our expenses JUST IN CASE Hacienda would not agree to it. To me, it feels that Hacienda is my gestoría's customer, and not us.
Lia Fail wrote:
Another issue that bugs me is how I feel I have to have 4000- 5000 in the bank to cushion me against late payers and other ups and downs. I don't think i should be taxed on that.
Indeed: if you make money, you pay it in income tax. If you keep the money after paying taxes, you pay because you have money. If you decide to buy a house, you pay both a national tax and local tax because you have it, whereas people who rent don't pay anything. So apparently we are supposed to spend all our money immediately in sex, drugs and rock and roll.
Yesterday former president Aznar said that our current Goverment is applying what Ronald Reagan summarised as (maybe it was different in original English): "If it moves, tax it; if it keeps moving, increase the tax; when it stops, subsidise it". I think it very well reflects what happens not only in Spain, but all over Europe.
Lia Fail wrote:
Can someone point me to a more sympathetic country for freelancers, becuase I think I want to escpae this nightmare - if I can?
If you find one, I'd happily join you in the journey! As a Spaniard I would it find it harder to move because in the end I love my country, have a wife who works for the Comunidad de Madrid, children in school, and the rest of the family.
Indeed it's either changing things or living my whole life as a slave of the Government. I am not exaggerating: total tax burden in Spain almost reaches 50% if you add income tax, VAT, tax on petrol, local taxes of all kind, etc. And when you have worked your brains out of your head working 12 hours a day and translating a zillion words and, despite Hacienda, manage to leave some assets behind for your kids... they will have to pay big bucks to Hacienda, and a lawyer, and a notary to inherit the property. And so their children, and the children of their children, etc. So in Spain buying property is a great long-term business.... for Hacienda!!
| | | | | Gestorías - We are not their customers | Jun 30, 2009 |
Another example: as we are a Comunidad de Bienes (we used to be a Sociedad Limitada), the Cámara de Comercio charges (I want to write "charged", but I am waiting for the resolution of my case against the Cámara) both my partner and I good 100 euros each for the Recurso Cameral Permanente. The Spanish Chambers of Commerce are not entitled to charge professionals, but they do chase companies with the bill, even if the business of the company is a professional activity, like translation for insta... See more Another example: as we are a Comunidad de Bienes (we used to be a Sociedad Limitada), the Cámara de Comercio charges (I want to write "charged", but I am waiting for the resolution of my case against the Cámara) both my partner and I good 100 euros each for the Recurso Cameral Permanente. The Spanish Chambers of Commerce are not entitled to charge professionals, but they do chase companies with the bill, even if the business of the company is a professional activity, like translation for instance.
When I called the Cámara de Comercio to ask about why they charge me even being a translator, the said (literally) "Well, you don't have to be upset about this; take it as a tax, pay, and forget about it".
When I called our gestoría to enquire about what to do, they got nervous: as it happens, the lawyer who owns the gestoría works for the Cámara de Comercio. So they were tremendously reluctant to offer me the legal assistance needed to drive the Cámara away as I can legally do based on numerous rulings about companies established by professionals.
The result: I had to look for the information myself without the legal assistance of the person who I pay to offer me legal assistance. I am seriously considering changing gestorías. The lesson here is that gestorías consider us their source of income, but the people they admire, respect and don't want to upset are Hacienda and any other form of authority. ▲ Collapse
| | | | Williamson
United Kingdom
Local time: 08:32
Flemish to English
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| Thanks Williamson! | Jun 30, 2009 |
Williamson wrote:
No, it is not the same in the entire EU.
It is a list well worth checking! Thanks a lot. I reckon many people in Spain are seriously considering taking their business somewhere else and at least reduce company tax!
I would perfectly understand if a translator would take his business somewhere else, for instance incorporating a company in another country with lower company tax and would pay only net income taxes in Spain. It's sad to have to think this way as I love my country and wish to see it thrive. And it would thrive with lower taxes, or at least a guarantee that taxes would not increase or would be simplified along time.
| | | | Latin_Hellas (X)
United States
Local time: 09:32
Italian to English
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Dear Lia,
I don't know how old you are, but I experienced similar issues when I was in my 20s in Italy in the early 1990s. My conclusion back then was that nothing significant would change over the ensuing 15-20 years, I voted with my feet, like many others, wandered around a bit, making a healthy living from the efficient part of the Italian economy from abroad, like some others, and in the event my conclusion has proven to be the correct one, perhaps conditions have even deter... See more Dear Lia,
I don't know how old you are, but I experienced similar issues when I was in my 20s in Italy in the early 1990s. My conclusion back then was that nothing significant would change over the ensuing 15-20 years, I voted with my feet, like many others, wandered around a bit, making a healthy living from the efficient part of the Italian economy from abroad, like some others, and in the event my conclusion has proven to be the correct one, perhaps conditions have even deteriorated further.
The United States is still a relative tax haven for the self-employed, especially if you live in a no-income tax state like Texas or Florida and own a modest property or no property at all.
If being autonomous is among your highest values and the tax system in a European country is ruining your life, then consider seriously voting with your feet to the US or Australia or maybe the UK. To be sure, you may suffer culturally, but at some point you have to prioritize your values, which may change over time as circumstances change.
Life as a student and a young adult is great in Europe, I took advantage of what was good, not so as a self-employed person without wealth and social connections trying to get established and start a family, but I imagine it can be good again as a retiree, and that's when I may go back. ▲ Collapse
| | | | Lia Fail (X)
Spain
Local time: 09:32
Spanish to English
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TOPIC STARTER | Williamson thanks too:-) | Jun 30, 2009 |
Tomás Cano Binder, CT wrote: Williamson wrote:
No, it is not the same in the entire EU. It is a list well worth checking! Thanks a lot. I reckon many people in Spain are seriously considering taking their business somewhere else and at least reduce company tax! I would perfectly understand if a translator would take his business somewhere else, for instance incorporating a company in another country with lower company tax and would pay only net income taxes in Spain. It's sad to have to think this way as I love my country and wish to see it thrive. And it would thrive with lower taxes, or at least a guarantee that taxes would not increase or would be simplified along time.
That was really interesting; my 2 candidate countries - AU and IRL - are way down the list. Worth thinking about.
Like Tomás though - thanks for listening! - I love Spain and my life is here. However, I'm tired of being "honest" with Hacienda becuase it simply causes you misery, and, in fact, they are making a big mistake, as they are encouraging everybody to avoid "issues" (I do it constantly on the advice of my gestor) and tax (which I've never done).
For example, due to a silly mistake, I was not empadronada in the place where I was fiscally resident for 3 months, so they questioned a tax deduction for 2006. I appealed (it cost me about 500 euros), on the basis that I could prove I was genuinely resident there (phone bills) and on the basis that empadronamiento was NOT a genuine basis on which to prove/disprove anything, given that there must be 000s of people in Spain who are declared to be living in one place but who are really living somewhere else (I know plenty of them). It took 2 years. Now I have to deal with another quibble for 2007, again a case where I didn't actually defraud, just overlooked something - and why? Becuase Hac makes it so complicated to be honest.
I'm going to change gestor, and I'l also going to make a few other changes, and I might well consider becoming resident in Ireland and living there the number of days necessary, then spending the rest of the time here ... become another northern European who comes here and lives it up on a generous pension or income - and takes advantage of a great healthcare system.
| | | | John Rawlins
Spain
Local time: 09:32
Spanish to English
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| Spain isn't so bad | Jun 30, 2009 |
I have been living in Spain for the past 20 years and I don't believe the tax system is especially difficult.
I don't generally use a gestor and I complete all my tax forms. When in doubt, I ask questions in the local tax office and I am pretty sure they all know my name.
I find Spanish bureaucrats are much more easy going when they know you personally. For example, last winter I was two days late submitting my VAT declaration. The girl on reception just smiled, opened... See more I have been living in Spain for the past 20 years and I don't believe the tax system is especially difficult.
I don't generally use a gestor and I complete all my tax forms. When in doubt, I ask questions in the local tax office and I am pretty sure they all know my name.
I find Spanish bureaucrats are much more easy going when they know you personally. For example, last winter I was two days late submitting my VAT declaration. The girl on reception just smiled, opened a drawer, and pulled out another stamp. This stamp showed the date for two days before - and hey presto - I wasn't late any more.
I always ignore the books and declare income according to the certificates - this makes everything easier. In the end, it all works out the same.
I claim for every expense that seems reasonable and business related - including 20% of all my household utility bills (but not the mortgage).
Here is a tip for taking the sting out of fines. I was once fined 100 euros for some ridiculous nonsense. I paid without getting stressed and just deducted the net from my next quarterly declaration of cash earnings. Fortunately, I manage to do some cash business every month and which I always declare. ▲ Collapse
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| Spain is heaven... | Jun 30, 2009 |
I am so glad I live and work in Spain: the Dutch tax system works much slower, and you always have to pay taxes over what they think you might be earning the following year, at the same moment you are trying to pay the extra money they think you owe them from two years back. From what I hear, taxation is murder for self-employed people in Italy and France.
In Spain I pay taxes every three months - a bit of a panic every time, but at least the annual tax return is basically done and ... See more I am so glad I live and work in Spain: the Dutch tax system works much slower, and you always have to pay taxes over what they think you might be earning the following year, at the same moment you are trying to pay the extra money they think you owe them from two years back. From what I hear, taxation is murder for self-employed people in Italy and France.
In Spain I pay taxes every three months - a bit of a panic every time, but at least the annual tax return is basically done and they always return money - within a week! Maybe Hacienda in Asturias is a bit more laid-back than in Barcelona, but I never had any problems.
I had the feeling the 'certificados' from Spanish clients came electronically and automatically now. But changing my activity from 'profesional' to 'empresarial' following the example of a valued ProZ colleague has done away with the IRPF deduction at the source - and the certificado business.
And I was also under the impression that the invoice date is what counts - sometimes I invoice just before or after the year depending on what is most convenient for me and/or a specific client but once the invoice is issued, your client should declare it in that year. And if they don't it's their problem - I don't see this 'desfase'.
Maybe change your gestoría for another one might help you and change your activity to simplify matters with regard to the IRPF. I am completely happy being self-employed in Spain and: do not consider moving to Holland or Belgium, even less to France or Italy for taxation purposes
I can imagine your frustration though: it's Murphy, one thing goes wrong and then immediately something else goes wrong.
[Edited at 2009-06-30 09:30 GMT] ▲ Collapse
| | | | | How do you do it??? | Jun 30, 2009 |
Anjo Sterringa wrote:
In Spain I pay taxes every three months - a bit of a panic every time, but at least the annual tax return is basically done and they always return money - within a week!
How do you do this? No matter how much deductible payments I make (in my home as first residence for instance), I always end up paying... and a lot!!
| | | | John Rawlins
Spain
Local time: 09:32
Spanish to English
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| The summer 'bonus' | Jun 30, 2009 |
Tomás Cano Binder, CT wrote: Anjo Sterringa wrote:
In Spain I pay taxes every three months - a bit of a panic every time, but at least the annual tax return is basically done and they always return money - within a week! How do you do this? No matter how much deductible payments I make (in my home as first residence for instance), I always end up paying... and a lot!!
Last year I declared an income of just over €35,000 and the taxman returned me €4001 in August. My tax and social security works out at just over 25% of gross income - which I believe is pretty low by European standards. I usually overpay by 2000-3000 euros every year and this makes a nice summer 'bonus'.
| | | | Williamson
United Kingdom
Local time: 08:32
Flemish to English
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I used to be a tax-subject to the number three on the list, where if you are self-employed, you have to pay taxes (and VAT) in advance or get fined.
At the moment, one of my options is to live a year or two in the 2nd lowest on the list. Been there years ago and since then the country boomed even more. There are quite a number of firms from my home country present there and the Brits don't need a visa.
No taxes at all, only VAT-is going to be introduced there, because ... See more I used to be a tax-subject to the number three on the list, where if you are self-employed, you have to pay taxes (and VAT) in advance or get fined.
At the moment, one of my options is to live a year or two in the 2nd lowest on the list. Been there years ago and since then the country boomed even more. There are quite a number of firms from my home country present there and the Brits don't need a visa.
No taxes at all, only VAT-is going to be introduced there, because that country wants to diversify its income. Now, that state gets its money from oil, not out of the pockets of its citizens.
Pity I have to study this summer and could not attend the conference in Ohrid. Otherwise, I'd would have been very interesting to see Macedonia (EU-Member-State by 2012?) with a tax-rate of 10%.
[Bijgewerkt op 2009-06-30 11:36 GMT] ▲ Collapse
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Lia Fail (X)
Spain
Local time: 09:32
Spanish to English
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TOPIC STARTER
John Rawlins wrote:
Last year I declared an income of just over €35,000 and the taxman returned me €4001 in August. My tax and social security works out at just over 25% of gross income - which I believe is pretty low by European standards. I usually overpay by 2000-3000 euros every year and this makes a nice summer 'bonus'.
I have a similar income and I PAY around 4000!!!!
Do you make deductions for dependents?
| | | | Lia Fail (X)
Spain
Local time: 09:32
Spanish to English
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TOPIC STARTER
John Rawlins wrote:
This stamp showed the date for two days before - and hey presto - I wasn't late any more.
I claim for every expense that seems reasonable and business related - including 20% of all my household utility bills (but not the mortgage).
In my office that would NEVER happen!
Can I ask why you don't claim for part of the mortgage?
| | | | Lia Fail (X)
Spain
Local time: 09:32
Spanish to English
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TOPIC STARTER | invoice dates and certs | Jun 30, 2009 |
Anjo Sterringa wrote: And I was also under the impression that the invoice date is what counts - sometimes I invoice just before or after the year depending on what is most convenient for me and/or a specific client but once the invoice is issued, your client should declare it in that year. And if they don't it's their problem - I don't see this 'desfase'. Maybe change your gestoría for another one might help you and change your activity to simplify matters with regard to the IRPF. I am completely happy being self-employed in Spain and: do not consider moving to Holland or Belgium, even less to France or Italy for taxation purposes [Edited at 2009-06-30 09:30 GMT]
There you go, John goes by the certs, you say that invoice date is what counts. And that makes sense to me. It's also what Hacienda says, but my gestor yesterday advised me to go by the certs.
I'm being badly advised and also not being properly advised, so I'm going to get a new gestor.
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