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When is it okay to pretend you've got a PhD?
Thread poster: Dylan J Hartmann
Dylan J Hartmann
Dylan J Hartmann  Identity Verified
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Clients need to verify credentials Oct 16, 2018

Rita Pang wrote:

When I first read your initial post, Dylan, I also thought you are referring to your own credentials for some strange reason.


The point I was trying to make (and insist on making) is that clients really need to ask for proof.

I've taken the next step forward and displayed my own credentials on my ProZ.com profile.

I think that "Fake Valor" has good similarity to this particular situation, and it 'may' be okay. I've reported them to the university. What do/can universities do about people claiming credentials that weren't awarded? We will see (probably nothing).


 
gayd (X)
gayd (X)
don't know about Asia Oct 17, 2018

Rita Pang wrote:



....but you also can't compare the fact that people don't just GET a PhD. It takes years. In Europe from what I understand it's usually 5 years for a BA + MA in the arts/literature industry. The courses at PhD level may be a certain number of years, but as we all know many people get stuck at the thesis part. A freelancer could be coming straight out of university or a 2-year college diploma and start working right away. If they happen to specialize in a very desirable field they could be making this 45k amount you're talking about very quickly. This would literally be someone in their early 20s. A PhD? Most people don't get that degree before their 30s. By the time they have the credentials to teach, TAs sometimes make even less than 40k a year and they are already in their mid or even late 30s, while someone who started that first job 10 years earlier could have advanced into a managerial position by now.

Long story short, NO, it's not a waste of time to be on Proz. You are also assuming that having a steady FT/PT job gives benefits. Not at all. There are parts of the world, in Asia for example, where many highly qualified teachers get only 10 days of annual vacation and are hired on contract, which automatically exempts their employer in offering health/dental benefits of any sort. [/quote]

I don't know about the situation in Asia but it might differ depending on the country.
But I've noticed that there are relatively few full time freelance translators based in the US on PROZ. Most of the translators on PROZ are based in Canada or Europe. In the US or Europe, it would be illegal to hire an employee without paying for health coverage and pension. As a freelancer, you must bear this cost yourself. In practice, it almost divides the income of a freelancer (which is in fact merely a turnover, not a real income) by 2.
University teacher is a job which is regularly ranked as one of the best jobs in the US.
The median income in the US is also quite high in large cities, so I guess that there are jobs that pay more than freelance translation.



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Rita Pang
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My thoughts Oct 20, 2018

David GAY wrote:

I don't know about the situation in Asia but it might differ depending on the country.
But I've noticed that there are relatively few full time freelance translators based in the US on PROZ. Most of the translators on PROZ are based in Canada or Europe. In the US or Europe, it would be illegal to hire an employee without paying for health coverage and pension. As a freelancer, you must bear this cost yourself. In practice, it almost divides the income of a freelancer (which is in fact merely a turnover, not a real income) by 2.
University teacher is a job which is regularly ranked as one of the best jobs in the US.
The median income in the US is also quite high in large cities, so I guess that there are jobs that pay more than freelance translation.


I am a little uncertain about the source of your research. First of all, universal health coverage is free for all eligible Canadian citizens and Permanent residents. Health "coverage" at company-level is more like benefits such as additional health service offerings, specialized medicine etc, which all depends on the type of insurance your employer decides to purchase for the whole company. Pension is deducted from taxes paid off of each pay stub for both full-time and part-time employees alike. Even if you work 5 hours a week at the local cafe, out of your weekly pay stub you'll be paying towards your own old age pension.

University teaching positions are generally great jobs, but do you know how many people out there compete for 1 seat? It takes years to go from contract to full-time, from TA to associate prof then to permanent professorship. I literally received a letter in the mail 9 months ago informing students of the faculty that a certain Prof. X finally got nominated as a permanent professor at the Faculty. I took her classes 12 years ago as an undergrad and back then she's already been on contract as an associate professor for years. The amount of teachers without a steady contract is unfortunately very high even in metropolitan locations across Canada.

There are also plenty of news articles lately (unfortunately) on just how underpaid teachers are, whether at secondary or post-secondary level of teaching across North America in general.

I am not here to maintain a black/white stance in saying that having a full-time job CANNOT possibly be better than working as a freelancer, because cases vary, but to assume that having a full-time job in the education industry = making more money always (in comparison to freelancing) is also an assumption.


 
gayd (X)
gayd (X)
Canada Oct 20, 2018

Rita Pang wrote:

David GAY wrote:

I don't know about the situation in Asia but it might differ depending on the country.
But I've noticed that there are relatively few full time freelance translators based in the US on PROZ. Most of the translators on PROZ are based in Canada or Europe. In the US or Europe, it would be illegal to hire an employee without paying for health coverage and pension. As a freelancer, you must bear this cost yourself. In practice, it almost divides the income of a freelancer (which is in fact merely a turnover, not a real income) by 2.
University teacher is a job which is regularly ranked as one of the best jobs in the US.
The median income in the US is also quite high in large cities, so I guess that there are jobs that pay more than freelance translation.


I am a little uncertain about the source of your research. First of all, universal health coverage is free for all eligible Canadian citizens and Permanent residents. Health "coverage" at company-level is more like benefits such as additional health service offerings, specialized medicine etc, which all depends on the type of insurance your employer decides to purchase for the whole company. Pension is deducted from taxes paid off of each pay stub for both full-time and part-time employees alike. Even if you work 5 hours a week at the local cafe, out of your weekly pay stub you'll be paying towards your own old age pension.

University teaching positions are generally great jobs, but do you know how many people out there compete for 1 seat? It takes years to go from contract to full-time, from TA to associate prof then to permanent professorship. I literally received a letter in the mail 9 months ago informing students of the faculty that a certain Prof. X finally got nominated as a permanent professor at the Faculty. I took her classes 12 years ago as an undergrad and back then she's already been on contract as an associate professor for years. The amount of teachers without a steady contract is unfortunately very high even in metropolitan locations across Canada.

There are also plenty of news articles lately (unfortunately) on just how underpaid teachers are, whether at secondary or post-secondary level of teaching across North America in general.

I am not here to maintain a black/white stance in saying that having a full-time job CANNOT possibly be better than working as a freelancer, because cases vary, but to assume that having a full-time job in the education industry = making more money always (in comparison to freelancing) is also an assumption.


Sorry, I don't know about the Canadian system. But in the US, there's definitely no universal health coverage (except medicare but I don't think you'd be entitled to rreceive medicare as a freelance translator) so you have to rely on the private insurance employers provide their employees with. Health services are very expensive so the cost of this insurance is very high. Employees rely on their
401 k plan for their pension. Employers also pay for this plan.

Even in France, which is one of the most generous countries in this regard, there is a huge inequality
of treatment between freelancers and employees as far as pension is concerned. In France, freelancers must also pay twice the amount employees pay for social contributions.
I think in most of the developed countries including in France and in the US, a freelancer must bear the costs that an employer has the obligation to bear for its employee, simply because self employed people are their
own employer.
I think you make a confusion between University teachers and school teachers. Only University teachers are recruited at PhD level and obviously the wages of University teachers are not comparable. There may be some competition for one job but it's also the case for translators.

I also strongly doubt that a freelance translator who's starting out in the industry has an income of
45000 USD (+benefits). A lot of translation graduates don't even work as freelance translators because they simply can't earn a decent living with this activity. They work as secretaries, teachers commercial assistants... Working as an employee is much safer and the benefits associated are not even comparable. My advice to freelance translators is definitely to save for their retirement (if they can).


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Lincoln Hui
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Rose-tinted glasses? Oct 20, 2018

I think you make a confusion between University teachers and school teachers. Only University teachers are recruited at PhD level and obviously the wages of University teachers are not comparable.

Er, no, they're very much comparable if you're not tenured, which is a 7-year process.

And frankly, you're making a logical error from the beginning. Freelance translation does not need to necessarily be more attractive than university teaching for it to be worth a PhD's time to be on ProZ. It only needs to be potentially more attractive in some cases, so you're not making any arguments that are even remotely relevant to your initial statement.


 
gayd (X)
gayd (X)
I just took the number you gave Oct 20, 2018

Lincoln Hui wrote:

I think you make a confusion between University teachers and school teachers. Only University teachers are recruited at PhD level and obviously the wages of University teachers are not comparable.

Er, no, they're very much comparable if you're not tenured, which is a 7-year process.

And frankly, you're making a logical error from the beginning. Freelance translation does not need to necessarily be more attractive than university teaching for it to be worth a PhD's time to be on ProZ. It only needs to be potentially more attractive in some cases, so you're not making any arguments that are even remotely relevant to your initial statement.


I just took the number you gave in your previous post: 45 kUSD (for a start) + benefits (401 k, healthcare).
Does a freelance translator start with this kind of money?
A university teacher in the US with experience can earn 100 kUSD + benefits
and some even earn 200.000 USD or even more + benefits. So there's some upside.
So I don't know who's making a "logical error".


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Post removed: This post was hidden by a moderator or staff member for the following reason: Site users are expected to treat each other with courtesy, https://www.proz.com/siterules/general/2#2
Tom in London
Tom in London
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Fud Oct 20, 2018

Q. When is it okay to pretend you've got a PhD?
A. Why would you want to?


José Henrique Lamensdorf
 
Post removed: This post was hidden by a moderator or staff member for the following reason: Reply to a hidden post.
Post removed: This post was hidden by a moderator or staff member for the following reason: Reply to a hidden post.
Rita Pang
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Not confused Oct 20, 2018

Lincoln Hui wrote:

I think you make a confusion between University teachers and school teachers. Only University teachers are recruited at PhD level and obviously the wages of University teachers are not comparable.

Er, no, they're very much comparable if you're not tenured, which is a 7-year process.

And frankly, you're making a logical error from the beginning. Freelance translation does not need to necessarily be more attractive than university teaching for it to be worth a PhD's time to be on ProZ. It only needs to be potentially more attractive in some cases, so you're not making any arguments that are even remotely relevant to your initial statement.


Exactly my point here. Freelancers in most countries pay double towards their own pension plans anyway. I've lived in Europe, Hong Kong, Canada and Brazil as a freelancer - it's not easy anywhere, but some places make it easier than others. In some countries, being a freelancer is the more viable way to make money. Go ask a PhD holder in Brazil and you'd know what I mean. Of course it's unfair to compare such drastically different social scenarios, but my point again is that people stick around being a freelancer for various reasons. Perhaps it's the flexibility in time. Perhaps it's the higher per-hour rate they make. Perhaps it's the sheer gratification they get from the line of work. Either way, I said what I said here because you seemed to be almost propagating this idea that freelancing is a waste of time, or at least on Proz, which I find strange. I certainly hope I was simply confused. Some of the top-earning folks here do a lot to improve their profile's visibility. It takes time to build and get to the same level of what they have. There's merit in every line of work, and I am sure we can both agree to that.

A PhD degree holder who was once a moderator of the Chinese language forum on Proz made more than 60k in her first year of going freelance because of her degree and very unique skill sets. She likely could find an equally well-paying (probably better paid) job at local universities but for reasons unknown (to me at least) chose to freelance instead. This type of income obviously is not common for someone starting out, but it's not unheard of. Many translators also take on other jobs - editors, copywriters, proofreaders and more. I certainly don't translate full-time but take on some of these other roles instead and yes, made over 45k in my second year of freelancing. Admittedly, luck was on my side.


 
gayd (X)
gayd (X)
Good luck for your pension! Oct 21, 2018

[quote]Rita Pang wrote:

I've lived in Europe, Hong Kong, Canada and Brazil as a freelancer -


I think you don't fully understand the meaning of the word pension because it's almost non existent in China.
Given the fact that you have worked in all these countries, I think the amount of your pension will be close to zero

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gayd (X)
gayd (X)
some reference material Oct 21, 2018

""But for most freelancers, I’m going to say that in order to achieve a similar level of financial security to someone with a traditional job, you need to be earning in the range of $75,000-$90,000 a year, unless you have very modest financial need... See more
""But for most freelancers, I’m going to say that in order to achieve a similar level of financial security to someone with a traditional job, you need to be earning in the range of $75,000-$90,000 a year, unless you have very modest financial needs or another source of income."

www.thoughtsontranslation.com/2018/02/07/much-freelance-translators-earn-enough-2018/
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DZiW (X)
DZiW (X)
Ukraine
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noise-to-signal arguments Oct 21, 2018

Dylan, keep us updated, so we learn how they react in the uni to [possible] subjective conjectures and prove their position, not to mention the steps taken... I did cooperate and work in a few project teams with related PhD researches (including translation and linguistics), so I really wonder whether "at a PhD level" remark would be well-grounded and useful in my CV, if any

TY


 
Rita Pang
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David Oct 22, 2018

David GAY wrote:
I think you don't fully understand the meaning of the word pension because it's almost non existent in China.
Given the fact that you have worked in all these countries, I think the amount of your pension will be close to zero.


Please research before commenting.

In terms of jurisdiction, Hong Kong belongs to China, but the two have very different pension systems. It's actually almost non-existent in Hong Kong but very much alive in China. I happen to live and work in the former. I am doing quite fine and there are many ways for one to invest and save towards future retirement without being employed by another company. I would suggest that you stop assuming that others are struggling without your advice. It's highly condescending.

[Edited at 2018-10-22 19:16 GMT]


 
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