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Release announcement: New KudoZ features
Thread poster: Enrique Cavalitto
Henry Dotterer
Henry Dotterer
Local time: 02:44
SITE FOUNDER
Please make up your mind based on your direct experiences May 25, 2006

A Hayes wrote:
Henry wrote:
Clearly your beef is not with KudoZ FVA, but with something else entirely. I can guess what it is, so I'll write to you directly.

And what might that be? I have no idea what you are referring to. Anyone who has been on ProZ long enough has witnessed instances of the site’s inconsistent policies. Whether they've said something about it or not is an entirely different kettle of fish.

You said, "Proz's policies are inconsitent/selective, not only when it comes to punitive measures and censorship, but also when responding to forum topics."

The fact is, despite what you may have heard about "censorship", we very seldom remove anything from the site that anyone has written, and then we do so only when there are clear violations of clear rules.

As for "punitive measures", we have been forced to take them so infrequently lately that there is only one person whom I can imagine you have at the top of your mind. That person has nothing to do with FVA, KudoZ, or anything in this thread. I am going to take a wild guess that you have formed an opinion about ProZ.com's "direction" based on what you have heard about those "punitive measures". Perhaps the information you received even came from the person involved directly?

That is just a wild guess. In any case, what I'll ask is that you form your opinions of ProZ.com, "censorship", "punitive measures", "direction", based on what you experience yourself, dealing directly with us, rather than relying on hearsay. I know you have not had any interaction with me, and you have not been involved in the discussions about direction (not that they are secret - far from it), so it is clear to me that what you are doing is speculating.

As for FVA, it is an experiment, not so important, and it would be silly to make any conclusions as to the "direction of the site" from it.


 
A Hayes (X)
A Hayes (X)
Australia
Local time: 16:44
hearsay vs eyes open May 26, 2006

Henry wrote:

The fact is, despite what you may have heard about "censorship", we very seldom remove anything from the site that anyone has written, and then we do so only when there are clear violations of clear rules.

As for "punitive measures", we have been forced to take them so infrequently lately that there is only one person whom I can imagine you have at the top of your mind. That person has nothing to do with FVA, KudoZ, or anything in this thread. I am going to take a wild guess that you have formed an opinion about ProZ.com's "direction" based on what you have heard about those "punitive measures". Perhaps the information you received even came from the person involved directly?

That is just a wild guess. In any case, what I'll ask is that you form your opinions of ProZ.com, "censorship", "punitive measures", "direction", based on what you experience yourself, dealing directly with us, rather than relying on hearsay.


Henry,

Everything I've said is based on my personal experience. I do not know who this person you are talking about is. The fact that certain things don't happen to me directly doesn't mean I do not notice. As for 'clear' rules and violations, I disagree.

FVA itself is of little consequence, I agree. My conclusions as to the direction of the site are not based on this latest development alone, as I've already explained.

I have given feedback on these points because, as a member, I care. I think that ProZ is a brillant idea (except for the KudoZ concept), but as someone mentioned a couple of pages back, it's trying to be too many things at once.

Enough from me now.

[Edited at 2006-05-26 19:59]


 
moken
moken  Identity Verified
Local time: 06:44
English to Spanish
+ ...
"Absolutely sure" when posting FVA agree? May 27, 2006

As we all know and has been discussed here, peer agreements are often awarded all too lightly. Personally, I don't see what stops a translator using any given answer in his own assignment before the question is closed, so I don't really see much point to this new feature.

However, ProZ.com is intent on trying it out. Fair enough. I'm easy with that so long as terms aren't entered into the glossary. For the time being they aren't and, fingers crossed, hopefully won't be in the futur
... See more
As we all know and has been discussed here, peer agreements are often awarded all too lightly. Personally, I don't see what stops a translator using any given answer in his own assignment before the question is closed, so I don't really see much point to this new feature.

However, ProZ.com is intent on trying it out. Fair enough. I'm easy with that so long as terms aren't entered into the glossary. For the time being they aren't and, fingers crossed, hopefully won't be in the future.

As an idea to ensure a certain degree of credibility, perhaps a small window could pop-up when attempting to agree to an FVA question, prompting the agreer to go ahead only if there he is in absolutely no doubt a to whether that answer is correct.

Maybe this already exists, I don't know as I am yet to agree on an FVA question.

Cheers,

Álvaro ))
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moken
moken  Identity Verified
Local time: 06:44
English to Spanish
+ ...
On storing over-limit questions May 27, 2006

Enrique wrote:

* You may remember that in response to member requests, a limit was instituted last year on the number of KudoZ questions that can be asked per day. The decision has been highly popular, but some confusion and inconvenience have resulted. Therefore, to make things easier, it is now possible to enter questions even after your limit has been hit. Such questions are held an appropriate period of time, and then posted as soon as would be allowed according to the daily limits (which are applied on a sliding 24-hour window). You'll get email notification when your question goes live.



Good thinking. Don't know if anyone has commented on this as FVA's stole the spotlight, but this shows concern and sensitivity towards translators. Enrique, could you tell me whether an asker has the option to cancel a question that is being held and not yet published?



On the idea of holding questions: Will we ever get to see Kudoz answers held for 5-10 minutes to ensure answerers have some degree of certainty or have done minimum research to check the adequacy of thier answers?

We all know translations can be very urgent, but someone who cannot wait 5 or 10 minutes for an answer would have to reconsider their approach when they got into that situation in the first place. Alternatively, a "Delayed response" feature might (options 5-10-30 mins for example)be enabled when asking a question and displayed when the question is posted, so potential answerers would know the asker is more interested in a well-meditated response than a quick one.

Thanks for your dedication.

Álvaro ))


 
Dyran Altenburg (X)
Dyran Altenburg (X)  Identity Verified
United States
Local time: 02:44
English to Spanish
+ ...
Psycho-ownership May 28, 2006

Terry Thatcher Waltz, Ph.D. wrote:
People always tend to take ownership psychologically of sites where they post or are active, but at the end of the day the site belongs to the owner, who can do as he or she pleases.


Exactly. We are but guests here and I'm ok with that.

I've also said that FMPOV ProZ in general is a great idea.

Still, the two main things that keep it from being totally awsome, is KudoZ and this thing about way too much censorship in the forums.

--
Dyran

[Edited at 2006-05-29 13:32]


 
farmor
farmor
Local time: 07:44
Danish to English
I couldn't agree more... May 30, 2006

Terry Thatcher Waltz, Ph.D. wrote:

Henry wrote:

And, as I have told you before, creating traffic through this and other programs, for the sake of traffic, is not an objective of ours. We gain nothing from it.


Sorry, Henry, I've got to call you on this one.

Anyone who runs a Web site for profit (and yours is definitely for profit) is concerned first and foremost about the number of paid subscribers, and the key way of promoting a site is by claiming a high number of hits. Increased traffic should (should!) translate into more job offers, more exposure for those listed, etc. etc.

Now, whether this happens, and whether this results in higher QUALITY job offers and participation is a separate issue. But to state that you have nothing to gain from increased traffic is really over-simplistic.

KudoZ and quality control essentially have never coexisted, as I have said (and been slapped for saying) in the past. It's interesting to see that the problem seems to have spread to other language combinations as well, based on the comments in this thread. But since KudoZ is an astonishingly successful psychological construct for the site (grappling for points that can't even be redeemed for jellybeans) it certainly works from a commercial standpoint. And no one is suggesting that the site should be obligated to behave like a non-profit, after all. It's a business, pure and simple. People always tend to take ownership psychologically of sites where they post or are active, but at the end of the day the site belongs to the owner, who can do as he or she pleases.


Terry,

I couldn't agree more!

As well, I have seen several problematic answers in my DA EN language combination. It's often horribly clear that the answerer doesn't have a good handle on the source language, yet several agrees later the answerer is rewarded with points, which in turn makes it difficult to trust the validity of the agrees, especially when I know that the answer is wrong.

Regards,

Nanna (Farmor)


 
E.LA
E.LA
Spanish to German
+ ...
terrible! Jun 4, 2006

The first validated answer" (FVA) system is terrible!

I supposed to be in a professional community, and that means that a person who does a translation, speaks source and target language.

Also I consider it not respectfull that somebody helps with answers for "not getting points".

Sometimes to give a good answer, you do some research and spend some time. And that should be considered in a symbolical "thanks" (points).

If somebody helps me with
... See more
The first validated answer" (FVA) system is terrible!

I supposed to be in a professional community, and that means that a person who does a translation, speaks source and target language.

Also I consider it not respectfull that somebody helps with answers for "not getting points".

Sometimes to give a good answer, you do some research and spend some time. And that should be considered in a symbolical "thanks" (points).

If somebody helps me with a problem, I consider that his effort, his knowledge and his time should be considered with points.

And on the other hand: I agree with all who said that sometimes too easily people put "agree" while the answer was wrong.

These kind of answers should not enter in the glossary!!!!

In the last days, I have seen too much "first validated answers" and really I don't like them!
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Konstantin Kisin
Konstantin Kisin  Identity Verified
United Kingdom
Local time: 06:44
Russian to English
+ ...
I don't often make strong criticisms of Proz.com Jun 12, 2006

but this is a terrible, ill-conceived idea for reasons that have been cited in this thread sufficiently.

In any event, the agree requirement MUST be raised to at least 5 net agrees. I have seen completely wrong answers get 2-3 net agrees from impulsive "commentators".


 
Enrique Cavalitto
Enrique Cavalitto  Identity Verified
Argentina
Local time: 03:44
Member (2006)
English to Spanish
TOPIC STARTER
Terrible? Jun 12, 2006

[quote]E.LA wrote:

The first validated answer" (FVA) system is terrible!
[quote]

Konstantin Kisin wrote:

... this is a terrible, ill-conceived idea for reasons that have been cited in this thread sufficiently.



I still fail to see why it is terrible to have a FVA asker's option that will award no points and will show no answers in the glossaries. What terrible damage can possibly be done?

Enrique


 
Konstantin Kisin
Konstantin Kisin  Identity Verified
United Kingdom
Local time: 06:44
Russian to English
+ ...
I thought this would be self-evident Jun 12, 2006



I still fail to see why it is terrible to have a FVA asker's option that will award no points and will show no answers in the glossaries. What terrible damage can possibly be done?

Enrique


Enrique, with respect, the end product of such questions is almost certainly going to be useless/inappropriate.

In instituting this option, Proz has moved away from the traditional values of Kudoz which encourage interaction between the Asker and those who submit answers, debate among those who answer and, most of all, careful consideration of a broad range of opinions in favour of a quick-and-dirty solution, where people with no access to the source text (and often no clue about the subject matter) are effectively deciding how someone will translate a certain term/sentence.

I personally believe that should such questions become commonplace (I've only seen 1 so far in my pairs and I am happy to say it remains without answers) it would serve only to undermine the professional approach that most of us have been campaigning to advance in the Kudoz arena. I felt that the change to the maximum number of questions that could be asked was a very positive move but I see this development as a step in the opposite direction.

Additionally, this discouragement of interaction between the parties involved in a Kudoz question could potentially lead to Kudoz becoming a service rather than a venue for mutual help, which is something I felt the site staff were seeking to prevent. I feel that this sends the wrong message to Kudoz participants and I would urge you and Henry to reconsider.

[Edited at 2006-06-12 23:47]


 
Mikhail Kropotov
Mikhail Kropotov  Identity Verified
Germany
Local time: 07:44
English to Russian
+ ...
Thanks, Kostya Jun 12, 2006

Thanks, Kostya, you've reiterated what I said from the very start (see the first and second pages of this thread).

Yet another vote against this "feature."

Cheers


 
Stuart Allsop
Stuart Allsop  Identity Verified
Chile
Local time: 03:44
Spanish to English
+ ...
And one more... Jun 15, 2006

Mikhail Kropotov wrote:

Yet another vote against this "feature."


You can add my vote too!

When I first saw the feature I thought, "Well now, THAT’S kind of silly! Not to mention useless.", then I promptly proceeded to ignore it, and didn't follow up on it too much. However, after having read through parts of this thread, and seeing the arguments both for and against, it's pretty clear that FVA is just a bad idea.

At best it will simply give half-baked answers on basic questions to "general public" non-native speakers who are not even translators. At worst it could drag down the reputation of Proz.com. It occurs to me that those self-same general-public non-translators could ask their basic questions just as well, and get better quality answers MUCH faster, by using the traditional questions system. Even if all they did was to chose the answer with the highest number of agrees after a couple of hours, they’d still be coming out ahead with a much better quality answer.

But as it is, they are more likely than not to get no answer at all, or an answer that isn’t even close to reality.

To be honest, I really don't mind helping out the occasional general-public "I love you" question: it costs me nothing but a few seconds of my time, and helps build a positive image of Proz, so that maybe one day when that person DOES need a professional translation, he'll remember the help and come back. As long as he does it through the normal Kudoz channel, then I'll be glad to help him. But not on FVA.

If that same person got a quick FVA answer of "Yo amo tu" in Spanish for his "I love you" question, then promptly got laughed at by his Spanish date, I somehow don't think he'll come back for more! Why do I think that he would get "Yo amo tu"? Because from what I've seen on this thread, full-time professional translators are all shunning the FVA system, so the chances are that the question will be answered by "someone else".... one of those gold-diggers that we all see scurrying around from time to time, scrabbling for Kudoz points by taking wild guesses at every single question they see, probably with a tourist's pocket dictionary clutched in one hand and their keyboard in the other.

Fortunately, FVA seems to be used very seldom, and I for one will NOT be answering any FVA questions, if I can avoid it.

I hope it goes away.



[Edited at 2006-06-15 03:57]


 
Sormane Gomes
Sormane Gomes
United States
Local time: 02:44
Portuguese to English
+ ...
Exactly. Jun 15, 2006

Konstantin Kisin wrote:

In instituting this option, Proz has moved away from the traditional values of Kudoz which encourage interaction between the Asker and those who submit answers, debate among those who answer and, most of all, careful consideration of a broad range of opinions in favour of a quick-and-dirty solution, where people with no access to the source text (and often no clue about the subject matter) are effectively deciding how someone will translate a certain term/sentence.

[...]

Additionally, this discouragement of interaction between the parties involved in a Kudoz question could potentially lead to Kudoz becoming a service rather than a venue for mutual help, which is something I felt the site staff were seeking to prevent. [...] [/quote]

I agree 100%. Well said, Konstantin.


Sormane F. Gomes


 
Tony M
Tony M
France
Local time: 07:44
Member
French to English
+ ...
SITE LOCALIZER
I entirely agree! Jun 21, 2006

Mikhail Kropotov wrote:

I propose that IF the majority is to decide on which answer is best, then the decision must be postponed until after everyone has had their say.


Practical experience of using the site in my own language pairs suggests that the majority decision is by no means always the right one, or indeed, even an acceptable one. Certainly, allowing, nay encouraging, it to be decided as speedily as possibly is a recipe for disaster!

This is sadly all part of the widespread 'dumbing-down' of ProZ which we are all powerless to resist, and which will ultimately, mark my words, spell the downfall of the site.

We paying members should band together and strongly resist these moves to lower the standards on the site to the point that, from having been a reference standard of professionalism and quality, it just becomes a lowest-common-denominator crutch to the incompetent.

Thankfully, the FVA system will be laughably easy to sabotage, and we all know that certain unfortunate fraternities within our community will have great fun doing so.

I predict the early demise of this ridiculous idea --- or if not, speedy, spiralling descent of ProZ into the murky maelstrom of incompetence, from the clutches of which most of us are constantly working so hard to escape.

[Edited at 2006-06-21 14:01]


Yvonne Gallagher
 
Stuart Allsop
Stuart Allsop  Identity Verified
Chile
Local time: 03:44
Spanish to English
+ ...
dumbing-down... Jun 21, 2006

Well said, Tony. Despite your negative prediction, I unfortunately fear that you are entirely accurate.

 
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