| Pages in topic: < [1 2] | Control of rates should always! reside in the hands of translators, not LSPs. Thread poster: Bernhard Sulzer
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Another issue is the nature of the jobs posted. Far too many are trivial or potential. We should not have to enter a bidding war just to translate a birth certificate.
But perhaps all this is to an extent inevitable. Most major agencies already are showered with the résumés of translators and interpreters covering the most common language combinations and fields. They’ve been receiving dozens of them a day for decades. Indeed, one might ask what an agency would be doing acceptin... See more Another issue is the nature of the jobs posted. Far too many are trivial or potential. We should not have to enter a bidding war just to translate a birth certificate.
But perhaps all this is to an extent inevitable. Most major agencies already are showered with the résumés of translators and interpreters covering the most common language combinations and fields. They’ve been receiving dozens of them a day for decades. Indeed, one might ask what an agency would be doing accepting a substantial, well-paid job without having someone lined up to work on it. And if they really need an expert in a particular specialisation, they can use the directory. So it’s hardly surprising that so many jobs posted on here by agencies are unpalatable.
If we can’t expect decent jobs from agencies, can we expect them from direct clients? This requires them to advertise their jobs on Proz rather than using any of the thousands of other options available – individual translators/interpreters; agencies; cheap translation/interpreting and general freelancing sites if they want a low price; machine translation sites if they don’t want to pay at all; professional translation associations if they’re more concerned with quality. That’s an awful lot of competition.
What about in-house positions? They get advertised all the time, but rarely on here. I could be wrong here, but I would imagine most human resource departments don’t use specialist websites for every position they recruit for. They don’t advertise on one site for a translator, another for a graphic designer, another for a programmer, etc.
So where does that leave Proz? ▲ Collapse
| | | | Sheila Wilson 
Spain
Local time: 13:28
Member (2007)
English
+ ...
| Where is this bidding war? | Sep 2, 2020 |
Alistair Gainey wrote:
Another issue is the nature of the jobs posted. Far too many are trivial or potential. We should not have to enter a bidding war just to translate a birth certificate.
I don't see any bidding war. Someone (agency, direct client or other) has a need for a translation. We send a quote. Nobody else is involved in the process; nobody else sees what rates we quote. It's a secret between each one of us and the job poster. So where's the bidding war? How could that process even be improved?
What about in-house positions? They get advertised all the time, but rarely on here. I could be wrong here, but I would imagine most human resource departments don’t use specialist websites for every position they recruit for. They don’t advertise on one site for a translator, another for a graphic designer, another for a programmer, etc.
This site isn't aimed at in-house positions. People who are looking for translators as employees will go to Indeed or another of the platforms that have that covered.
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I don't see any bidding war. Someone (agency, direct client or other) has a need for a translation. We send a quote. Nobody else is involved in the process; nobody else sees what rates we quote. It's a secret between each one of us and the job poster. So where's the bidding war? How could that process even be improved?
OK, maybe not a 'war' as such. And of course even if a client contacts someone directly there's always a chance that they'll contact someone else too to compare quotes.
| | | | | It is, though... | Sep 2, 2020 |
Sheila Wilson wrote:
I don't see any bidding war.
Ok, we don't see it, but it goes on, behind closed doors. The poster posts a job for people to bid on... it is a bidding process. Maybe "war" is a strong word, but it's still "bidding"...
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Sheila Wilson
Spain
Local time: 13:28
Member (2007)
English
+ ...
| But that's how business is done | Sep 2, 2020 |
Giovanni Guarnieri MITI, MIL wrote: Sheila Wilson wrote:
I don't see any bidding war. Ok, we don't see it, but it goes on, behind closed doors. The poster posts a job for people to bid on... it is a bidding process. Maybe "war" is a strong word, but it's still "bidding"...
It's a normal business practice. If I want a new kitchen I ask for quotes. When I wanted a logo, I asked for quotes on a site similar to this one. When the government want a new library or bridge or whatever, they ask for quotes, or tenders if you prefer that word. What is the complaint when it happens here at ProZ.com? I simply don't understand.
I did for a short while have a profile at Freelancer.com. Now, that WAS a bidding war. All clients put their maximum rate in big numerals and every single quote was published on the website -- the translator's proposed rate (way, way lower than mine), delivery date (not allowing for sleeping or eating), everything. Dreadful way to do business! Of course, the site attracted a whole raft of "hobby translators".
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Sheila Wilson wrote:
It's a normal business practice. If I want a new kitchen I ask for quotes. When I wanted a logo, I asked for quotes on a site similar to this one. When the government want a new library or bridge or whatever, they ask for quotes, or tenders if you prefer that word. What is the complaint when it happens here at ProZ.com? I simply don't understand.
I did for a short while have a profile at Freelancer.com. Now, that WAS a bidding war. All clients put their maximum rate in big numerals and every single quote was published on the website -- the translator's proposed rate (way, way lower than mine), delivery date (not allowing for sleeping or eating), everything. Dreadful way to do business! Of course, the site attracted a whole raft of "hobby translators".
I'm not complaining... yes, it's business. The only problem with your example is that contractors don't have to compete with other companies all over the world, apart for mega projects, obviously. Business is usually done locally. We - freelance translators - have to compete literally with every single translator in our language combination. So, participating to a bidding system is usually a waste of time because the competition is immense (as you know from your Freelancer.com experience).
| | | | Bernhard Sulzer
United States
Local time: 08:28
English to German
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TOPIC STARTER | The job board is not how business should be done | Sep 2, 2020 |
@Sheila
When you ask for a quote for a kitchen, you have to let the business or craftsman give you a quote.
On the job board, you as the business or individual translator find your prospective client deciding how little he or she will pay.
That in itself completely reverses the idea and Proz.com policy that the translator, not the client, should always be in control of the price or rates.
You can quote within that range, anything above it won't do.<... See more @Sheila
When you ask for a quote for a kitchen, you have to let the business or craftsman give you a quote.
On the job board, you as the business or individual translator find your prospective client deciding how little he or she will pay.
That in itself completely reverses the idea and Proz.com policy that the translator, not the client, should always be in control of the price or rates.
You can quote within that range, anything above it won't do.
The job will go to someone who seems to be acceptable and "quotes" the "best" (= lowest) rate within the given range. It's bidding of the worst kind.
When the given range is so low it's outright predatory, it's not how business should be done. Still it is because posters are allowed to do it.
By Proz.com stating this doesn't infringe on any of the rules and policies of Proz.com, the practice and rate or price range is legitimized. That's what I see as the core of the problem. It encourages unacceptable business practices.
The impact of such practices on our sector and livelihoods cannot be positive and permitting these practices on this platform certainly doesn't put translators first. My take.
[Edited at 2020-09-02 15:34 GMT] ▲ Collapse
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Sheila Wilson wrote:
It's a normal business practice. If I want a new kitchen I ask for quotes. When I wanted a logo, I asked for quotes on a site similar to this one. When the government want a new library or bridge or whatever, they ask for quotes, or tenders if you prefer that word. What is the complaint when it happens here at ProZ.com? I simply don't understand.
Because you or the government will require a contractor to meet certain standards, therefore preventing stupidly low bids (in theory!)
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Sheila Wilson
Spain
Local time: 13:28
Member (2007)
English
+ ...
| What percentage of jobs give a budget? | Sep 2, 2020 |
Bernhard Sulzer wrote:
On the job board, you as the business or individual translator find your prospective client deciding how little he or she will pay.
That in itself completely reverses the idea and Proz.com policy that the translator, not the client, should always be in control of the price or rates.
You can quote within that range, anything above it won't do.
You always imply that just about every job includes a budget range. I would like to know what the percentage is. I believe it's very low. The vast majority of jobs I see on the job board don't specify anything in terms of rates.
Also, you say above that we have to quote within the stated range. Not only do ProZ.com make it clear that that is untrue, I've several times quoted above the range and been contacted by the client who's interested in me doing the job for my stated rate.
But we're going round and round the same loop and frankly it's boring. You clearly won't change your opinion, so it's pointless. I'm not saying this site is perfect -- not by a long way -- but this seems more like a bee in a bonnet than based on factual evidence.
| | | | Bernhard Sulzer
United States
Local time: 08:28
English to German
+ ...
TOPIC STARTER | I don't find talking about it boring | Sep 2, 2020 |
Sheila Wilson wrote: Bernhard Sulzer wrote:
On the job board, you as the business or individual translator find your prospective client deciding how little he or she will pay.
That in itself completely reverses the idea and Proz.com policy that the translator, not the client, should always be in control of the price or rates.
You can quote within that range, anything above it won't do. You always imply that just about every job includes a budget range. I would like to know what the percentage is. I believe it's very low. The vast majority of jobs I see on the job board don't specify anything in terms of rates. Also, you say above that we have to quote within the stated range. Not only do ProZ.com make it clear that that is untrue, I've several times quoted above the range and been contacted by the client who's interested in me doing the job for my stated rate. But we're going round and round the same loop and frankly it's boring. You clearly won't change your opinion, so it's pointless. I'm not saying this site is perfect -- not by a long way -- but this seems more like a bee in a bonnet than based on factual evidence.
Just to clarify:
I didn't say you "have" to quote within the stated range. But the point of the stated rate range is to let the translator know that that's the budget. I don't apply for such jobs anyway but that doesn't mean they aren't posted and accepted or that I should assume they'll be paying outside of that range. In any case, most posts I see either have a very low stated range or ask for the "best rate." In general, I know (by way of applications) that clients here expect low rates already.
Good jobs either with an acceptable range or even better - no range or no "best rate" scenario are not the norm but the exception. That's what I see in my language directions. There are many jobs that pay very little. This has been going on for 20 years and it's not getting any better. The bottom rate posts continue every day.
Also, I don't feel I'm going around and around. It is the first time I have pointed to Proz.com's statement: "Control of rates should always! reside in the hands of service providers." I explained what it means to me, what the implications are and that I don't see how the job board with posters deciding how much they will pay reflects that statement.
If you mean by going around and around I keep saying that unacceptably low rate range posts and thus rates are devastating to the business, then yes, I might be, but not everyone is familiar with it. I think we should keep talking about it, even if it's boring to you.
[Edited at 2020-09-03 05:27 GMT]
| | | | Samuel Murray
Netherlands
Local time: 14:28
Member (2006)
English to Afrikaans
+ ...
| @Sheila (and OP) | Sep 3, 2020 |
Sheila Wilson wrote:
[Bernhard] always impl[ies] that just about every job includes a budget range. I would like to know what the percentage is. I believe it's very low.
In my language combination, it's low.
Sheila Wilson wrote: Bernhard Sulzer wrote:
a) "Service provider" can be (mis)understood as LSP - Language Service Provider - which is generally understood as translation agency, not individual translators. An LSP is an agency. I agree that it's a confusing name.
I understand that some documents or sites use the term "LSP" to refer to an agency in exclusion to a translator, but other sources use the term (or similar terms) to mean any business that supplies translation services (and a freelance translator is is a business). For example, the good old EN 15038 calls it "translator service providers" (TSP) and defines it as a "person or organisation supplying translation services".
I don't mind that ProZ.com refers to me as a "service provider". It elevates my status above translators who translate as an informal, part-time extra source of income, or those that work for gig platforms where the platform controls the translator. I'm happy to be called a "service provider".
[Edited at 2020-09-03 07:08 GMT]
| | | | Samuel Murray
Netherlands
Local time: 14:28
Member (2006)
English to Afrikaans
+ ...
Bernhard Sulzer wrote:
How is it acceptable to any paying professional member here that next to their online shop window they face such unprofessional but obviously sanctioned competition?
What an odd thing to say. I do not consider agencies that post jobs on the job board to be my competitors.
This is not true for the job board. Proz.com can institute minimum amounts, below which a poster would not be able to post his/her job.
ProZ.com does not do that for mainly two good reasons:
(a) Different translators will have different opinions about what is a valid minimum, so they'll never satisfy everyone. If they set the bar too high, they'll upset translators who believe that the rate is so high that it will cost them business, and if they set the bar too low, they'll upset people like you. Also, what is considered fair depends on the location of the translator and the location of the client (and the agency's location is seldom a good indication of the actual client's location).
Some of my colleagues are appalled that I charge "excessive" rates of as much as USD 0.12 per word (the codes of ethics of the translator associations I belong to prohibit "excessive" rates), while other of my colleagues are upset that I "undercut them" by charging as little as USD 0.12 per word.
(b) More importantly, not all translation jobs can be easily reduced to a single figure. If there was a required minimum, and even if all clients were honest, different clients would calculate the single figure differently, and some may believe that their offered rate is indeed above the minimum while the translator might feel differently. The argument for a required minimum only works for very simple types of jobs where the job entails truly just a number of words to be translated, production line style, and nothing further. Perhaps most of your jobs are of that type, which would explain why you believe that the costing of a job can effortlessly be reduced to a single set of figures.
I'm happy that I can decide for myself what I bring to the table, and not let the client be in complete control of how the rate should be calculated.
Proz.com should no longer allow job posters to post rates or prices or rate and price ranges for jobs they post on the job board.
Others consider it useful that bottom feeding clients make it clear that they are such, so that translators may know not to waste their time writing detailed quotes for them, or that premium clients can be seen to be such, so that translators may know to spend extra time crafting a convincing quote.
[Edited at 2020-09-03 07:12 GMT]
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Bernhard Sulzer
United States
Local time: 08:28
English to German
+ ...
TOPIC STARTER | Where there's no will, there's no way | Sep 3, 2020 |
Samuel Murray wrote: Bernhard Sulzer wrote:
How is it acceptable to any paying professional member here that next to their online shop window they face such unprofessional but obviously sanctioned competition? What an odd thing to say. I do not consider agencies that post jobs on the job board to be my competitors.
I discussed this above. The "competition" is the whole job board system (think of it like a sweat shop staffed with cheap labor). Next to your nice shop that you worked hard to build and market. Next to you: extremely low bidding often based on agencies' stated rate ranges or demands like "give us your best rate." That's not okay. It's just not. It doesn't reflect the site's stated philosophy to put translators first. It's not ethical. It doesn't help me, it works against my efforts. I did already talk about that above.
Ignoring standard business policies and ethics isn't what I want supported on a platform where I advertise.
Bernhard Sulzer wrote:
This is not true for the job board. Proz.com can institute minimum amounts, below which a poster would not be able to post his/her job.
Samuel Murray wrote:
ProZ.com does not do that for mainly two good reasons:
(a) Different translators will have different opinions about what is a valid minimum, so they'll never satisfy everyone. If they set the bar too high, they'll upset translators who believe that the rate is so high that it will cost them business, and if they set the bar too low, they'll upset people like you. Also, what is considered fair depends on the location of the translator and the location of the client (and the agency's location is seldom a good indication of the actual client's location).
No one will be upset if Proz.com doesn't allow $2 - $10 per hour rate ranges. Goes for 1- 4 Cents per word as well. Other platforms do it. And they don't call themselves Proz. You don't upset me at all if the minimum still seems low to me. What I oppose is outright predatory ranges. $2 to $5 dollars an hour is certainly that. And your location argument doesn't really work. You can find these demands from companies in the US, Germany as well as India or China. Everywhere. And your client isn't necessarily the end client.
Samuel Murray wrote:
(b) More importantly, not all translation jobs can be easily reduced to a single figure. If there was a required minimum, and even if all clients were honest, different clients would calculate the single figure differently, and some may believe that their offered rate is indeed above the minimum while the translator might feel differently. The argument for a required minimum only works for very simple types of jobs where the job entails truly just a number of words to be translated, production line style, and nothing further. Perhaps most of your jobs are of that type, which would explain why you believe that the costing of a job can effortlessly be reduced to a single set of figures.
When you quote a job as per word, it's more than just counting words. It does include all the tasks you carry out. You know that.
And the argument for a minimum rate works because any professional translator anywhere will tell you that certain rates and prices are simply ridiculous and should never appear here. This is not impossible to do. Other platforms do it but it's not happening here because most translators here aren't interested. And Proz.com doesn't think they gain anything from it. I am amazed that people here aren't bothered. Some even defend the status quo. What happened to ethics and business sense? Just because you don't use the job board shouldn't mean you accept the fact it allows ANYTHING to be posted as a rate range. The board has grown over the years. Did you forget that? And job negotiations after the directory search are certainly influenced by what anyone can see on the job board.
But we don't need to set minimums. Get rid of the awful bidding system altogether. Period. Revamp the site. Professionals will be happy to pay more for membership if Proz.com puts translators first.
Samuel Murray wrote:
I'm happy that I can decide for myself what I bring to the table, and not let the client be in complete control of how the rate should be calculated.
Yes, and you probably ignore outrageous demands and rate ranges. But Proz.com allows them. Ergo, translators jump on it and bidding to the bottom ensues. The proof can be seen in the same demands and interactions on the job board every day. It's not right. It encourages unprofessional business practices. Now I am really going around and around. It seems futile to try to convince you.
Bernhard Sulzer wrote:
Proz.com should no longer allow job posters to post rates or prices or rate and price ranges for jobs they post on the job board.
Samuel Murray wrote:
Others consider it useful that bottom feeding clients make it clear that they are such, so that translators may know not to waste their time writing detailed quotes for them, or that premium clients can be seen to be such, so that translators may know to spend extra time crafting a convincing
See my previous point.
[Edited at 2020-09-03 15:45 GMT]
| | | | | Pages in topic: < [1 2] | To report site rules violations or get help, contact a site moderator: You can also contact site staff by submitting a support request » Control of rates should always! reside in the hands of translators, not LSPs. | Anycount & Translation Office 3000 | Translation Office 3000
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