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"Premium"(?) jobs do not necessarily pay above-market rates
Thread poster: Mirko Mainardi
The Misha
The Misha
Local time: 06:10
Russian to English
+ ...
Hands off them recipes!:) Jul 31, 2017

[quote]Sheila Wilson wrote:

David GAY wrote:
Who uses recipes except housewives and cooks?


This is indeed a ridiculous proposition. I have always cooked, and I love cooking. I hardly ever translate recipes though - because it's an insanely difficult and time- consuming thing to do if you are to do it right. I would also say they are vastly more meaningful and important than most of the legal and financial fare I usually translate - which I do as fast as I can type in most cases.

Ditto for "tourism" texts which are basically advertising copy. Who would want to even look at your brochure if it doesn't read well?

There is no such thing as important/unimportant topics or subject matter areas. It's all in the eye of the beholder and all subject to one's professional skills and experience.

Don't mess with us cooks. Or else.:)


 
Michael Wetzel
Michael Wetzel  Identity Verified
Germany
Local time: 11:10
German to English
unclear Aug 1, 2017

David, there's two things I don't understand:

Are you saying that freelancers here are consistently exaggerating the minimum rates listed on their profile pages? Why would they do that? What advantage would it provide them if they are worried about being underbid? (I can understand why their average rate might not necessarily be accurate, but I do not understand how it can make sense to assume that freelancers here are consistently and substantially inflating their minimum rates.)... See more
David, there's two things I don't understand:

Are you saying that freelancers here are consistently exaggerating the minimum rates listed on their profile pages? Why would they do that? What advantage would it provide them if they are worried about being underbid? (I can understand why their average rate might not necessarily be accurate, but I do not understand how it can make sense to assume that freelancers here are consistently and substantially inflating their minimum rates.)

Would you agree that a highly qualified translator specifically sought out by a bed-and-breakfast to translate their website will earn a much higher rate than a translator dealing with complex brain surgery on a project outsourced through a large translation agency? That seems like basic economics to me, but maybe I'm missing something.

I guess there is a third question: I assumed you were just being facetious and politically correct with the whole housewives and cooks bit, but who knows, it's 2017. You do understand that people train or learn on the job for years to become chefs and restauranteurs, don't you? In the process, they learn a language that neither of us know and they can immediately recognize whether someone is a fluent speaker of culinese.
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José Henrique Lamensdorf
José Henrique Lamensdorf  Identity Verified
Brazil
Local time: 07:10
English to Portuguese
+ ...
In memoriam
Butting in... my answers Aug 1, 2017

Michael Wetzel wrote:

David, there's two things I don't understand:

Are you saying that freelancers here are consistently exaggerating the minimum rates listed on their profile pages? Why would they do that? What advantage would it provide them if they are worried about being underbid? (I can understand why their average rate might not necessarily be accurate, but I do not understand how it can make sense to assume that freelancers here are consistently and substantially inflating their minimum rates.)


Yes, because translation is the only trade I know of where the customer has usurped the right to impose payment terms and methods.

If you check any business selling goods or services - translation agencies included!!! - they'll state the means of payment they DO and DO NOT accept. However a translation agency usually imposes the payment methods they use to pay translators, and very few will make any exception to these. Furthermore, agencies state how much they CHARGE for using each payment method! Yesterday I read on Facebook about a translation agency that charges 5% from the translator to use PayPal... which costs them nothing, but deducts hefty fees from the payee.

Were that not enough, too many translation agencies unilaterally impose their payment term, and won't budge. If they say "We pay 60 days after month end", all that is left for the translator is to pray they keep their word on it, even if they publicly state, loud and clear, on their web site that payment from the end-client is required in advance.

Once I was chatting with a fellow translator who works in my language pair, lives within walking distance from me, and has about the same qualifications as mine. We've worked together on a few jobs. He told me his rates, which were 50% higher than mine. I was stunned! But then he explained it, "You are talking about your COD rate. I'm talking about my rate for 50% payment in 30 days, and the other 50% in 60 days. If a client chooses to pay me faster, I'll give them a big discount, my rate would be the same as yours if they paid me COD."

So yes, many freelancers "salt" their rates to face abusive T&C imposed by translation agencies on the PO (and not before). The root cause of this is the worldwide overabundance of "desperado" bilinguals posing as translators, who will bow to any abuse.

Michael Wetzel wrote:
Would you agree that a highly qualified translator specifically sought out by a bed-and-breakfast to translate their website will earn a much higher rate than a translator dealing with complex brain surgery on a project outsourced through a large translation agency? That seems like basic economics to me, but maybe I'm missing something.


Yes, you are missing something. If you specifically seek a specialized brain surgeon to patch a wound, it is fair to pay him/her brain surgery rates. The B&B can get their web site translated by a translation GP.


 
Michael Wetzel
Michael Wetzel  Identity Verified
Germany
Local time: 11:10
German to English
No, you can't. Aug 1, 2017

José Henrique Lamensdorf wrote:

Michael Wetzel wrote:
Would you agree that a highly qualified translator specifically sought out by a bed-and-breakfast to translate their website will earn a much higher rate than a translator dealing with complex brain surgery on a project outsourced through a large translation agency? That seems like basic economics to me, but maybe I'm missing something.


Yes, you are missing something. If you specifically seek a specialized brain surgeon to patch a wound, it is fair to pay him/her brain surgery rates. The B&B can get their web site translated by a translation GP.


I disagree that a "GP" translator can do an excellent job of translating a bed-and-breakfast website. That perspective actually seems kind of bizarre to me, but at least we've pinpointed one of the sources of disagreement here.
And lots of translation clients (rightly or wrongly) agree with me on this one, so my position would remain financially relevant even if it were factually incorrect.

And the difference in price (when seen in terms of a normal business's overall budget) is often negligible: Whether at 5 cents or 25 cents per word, the expense will make no difference in the business's bottom line, but a lot of clients are (again, rightly or wrongly) convinced that great or consistently good translations will make a substantial difference in their income.

And brain surgeons who have the time and inclination to patch my wounds better take whatever I'm willing to pay, because they must not be very good brain surgeons.

As far as the first point goes: How visible are rates when outsourcers are searching for translators? Can they define a maximum rate when searching or order the results by lowest rate? If that's not the case, then my reasoning was probably based on a false premise. But are there really a lot of translators out there who often work for rates even lower than what they list as the minimum rate in their profiles?


 
José Henrique Lamensdorf
José Henrique Lamensdorf  Identity Verified
Brazil
Local time: 07:10
English to Portuguese
+ ...
In memoriam
Getting there Aug 1, 2017

Michael Wetzel wrote:

I disagree that a "GP" translator can do an excellent job of translating a bed-and-breakfast website. That perspective actually seems kind of bizarre to me, but at least we've pinpointed one of the sources of disagreement here.
And lots of translation clients (rightly or wrongly) agree with me on this one, so my position would remain financially relevant even if it were factually incorrect.


I am not very familiar with medicine. That's one reason why I boldly state on my web site that I don't translate medical material intended for healthcare professionals.

However as I understand it, the MD goes to medical school, graduates as a physician/GP, and then has a period of residence, to later take a specialization course and become, e.g. in our present case, a brain surgeon.

My point is that a fresh graduate from a university-level course in Translation & Interpreting is supposedly qualified to translate a B&B web site to acceptable quality standards.

Michael Wetzel wrote:
And the difference in price (when seen in terms of a normal business's overall budget) is often negligible: Whether at 5 cents or 25 cents per word, the expense will make no difference in the business's bottom line, but a lot of clients are (again, rightly or wrongly) convinced that great or consistently good translations will make a substantial difference in their income.


Dead right! This is why an end-client will pay though the nose to a translation AGENCY in order to get their stuff translated. The agency, however, will often take the chance to increase its profits by hiring the cheapest translator they can find to get barely passable work. Very few translation agencies really take translation quality at heart as much as they say they do on their web sites.

Michael Wetzel wrote:
As far as the first point goes: How visible are rates when outsourcers are searching for translators? Can they define a maximum rate when searching or order the results by lowest rate? If that's not the case, then my reasoning was probably based on a false premise. But are there really a lot of translators out there who often work for rates even lower than what they list as the minimum rate in their profiles?


Now and then people goof. Some clients have klutzy staff, who will ask me for a cost estimate via e-mail, attaching the source files AND one or more bids from colleagues. So I've seen people who state everywhere they charge, say, 10, actually offering to work for 6-7.


 
Michael Wetzel
Michael Wetzel  Identity Verified
Germany
Local time: 11:10
German to English
also applies for freelancers Aug 1, 2017

José Henrique Lamensdorf wrote:

Michael Wetzel wrote:
And the difference in price (when seen in terms of a normal business's overall budget) is often negligible: Whether at 5 cents or 25 cents per word, the expense will make no difference in the business's bottom line, but a lot of clients are (again, rightly or wrongly) convinced that great or consistently good translations will make a substantial difference in their income.


Dead right! This is why an end-client will pay though the nose to a translation AGENCY in order to get their stuff translated. The agency, however, will often take the chance to increase its profits by hiring the cheapest translator they can find to get barely passable work. Very few translation agencies really take translation quality at heart as much as they say they do on their web sites.


But small- and medium-sized businesses and other freelancers are also perfectly happy to pay high prices to freelancers. (That's why this discussion matters.)

A lot of them would actually never even consider going to a generalist agency, because they have recognized the mechanism (or at least the symptoms) you're talking about.


 
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gayd (X)
gayd (X)
not updated Aug 1, 2017

Michael Wetzel wrote:

David, there's two things I don't understand:

Are you saying that freelancers here are consistently exaggerating the minimum rates listed on their profile pages? Why would they do that? What advantage would it provide them if they are worried about being underbid? (I can understand why their average rate might not necessarily be accurate, but I do not understand how it can make sense to assume that freelancers here are consistently and substantially inflating their minimum rates.)




1)For pairs like Spanish or English into French, most newbies stick to the community rates. There are plenty of seasoned translators in these pairs who are between 0.05-0.06.

2) Proz community rates are not updated. I see a lot of profiles with rates as low as 0.05-0.06 euro in pairs like English or Spanish into French. So the minimum rates on these pairs should be 0.05. But it isn't the case.
Proz staff based in Argentina have very low rates on their profiles. If you have a look at the community rates for English into Spanish (minimum) it's twice as much as their rates.

3) Some translators have higher rates on their profiles. But you'll soon realize that it's not the real rate they offer
if you see that the WWA they have on their profiles have been given by agencies who pay between 0.03 and 0.05!

[Modifié le 2017-08-01 21:55 GMT]

[Modifié le 2017-08-01 23:20 GMT]


 
gayd (X)
gayd (X)
????? Aug 1, 2017

Michael Wetzel wrote:


Would you agree that a highly qualified translator specifically sought out by a bed-and-breakfast to translate their website will earn a much higher rate than a translator dealing with complex brain surgery on a project outsourced through a large translation agency? That seems like basic economics to me, but maybe I'm missing something.


Are you sure you know anything about economics? I guess a highly qualified translator wouldn't waste time on the translation of the site of a Bed and Breakfast. What you probably mean is that a translator would pick a direct client instead of an agency. But as you probably know, it's quite hard and time consuming to find direct clients. I don't see why in your example a bed and breakfast would choose a very expensive translator to translate sthg that is very basic.

[Modifié le 2017-08-01 21:40 GMT]


 
gayd (X)
gayd (X)
there's a huge difference between cooking and translating recipes Aug 1, 2017

Michael Wetzel wrote:

You do understand that people train or learn on the job for years to become chefs and restauranteurs, don't you? In the process, they learn a language that neither of us know and they can immediately recognize whether someone is a fluent speaker of culinese.



Translating recipes is a bit like translating user's manuals. It doesn't even require good writing skills. The translation of user's manuals will soon be fully automated. I guess that Ramey or Sheila haven't completed any kind of professional training in cooking. They seem to translate recipes though! So I guess it's not too difficult to find the right vocabulary on the internet.
There are plenty of recipes on the internet for free.

Let's take an example: an award winning chili con carne recipe I got on the internet. If it's an award winning recipe it must really be tough!


Heat oil in a large saucepan over medium heat. Cook green pepper, and onion, until softened. Add the ground beef and cook until browned. Crumble over bouillon cubes, and stir in wine; continue to cook for a few minutes. Stir in chopped tomatoes, garlic, and tomato paste. Season with paprika, chili powder, cayenne pepper, basil, oregano, and parsley. Stir in salt and pepper.
Bring to a boil over high heat. Reduce heat to medium low. Cover, and simmer for 90 minutes, stirring occasionally.
Stir in kidney beans, and hot pepper sauce. You can add the reserved tomato juice if more liquid is needed. Continue to simmer for an additional 30 minutes.
In a small bowl, whisk together the flour, corn meal, and water until smooth. Stir into chili, and cook for a further 10 minutes, or until chili has thickened up.

Yes, it's quite tough indeed! how many tense(s) have been used?
-One

average length of a "sentence":
6 words.

superb writing skills are really required to translate this recipe! If you manage to translate that one, you'll deserve a great WWA on your profile!

Unfortunately, MT is going to be able to translate this kind of thing very soon! If you really rely on the translation of recipes to earn a living, my advice would be to diversify your income! Why not become a cook or flip burgers?

What is tough to translate is something you don't understand because you don't have the technical expertise needed. But it hardly ever happens with recipes because recipes are meant for anybody!



[Modifié le 2017-08-02 13:03 GMT]


 
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Nina Esser
Nina Esser
Germany
Local time: 11:10
English to German
Time is money Aug 2, 2017

Just because a text can be easily understood by anybody, doesn't make it easy to translate IMHO. I've always thought that this attitude made people 'invent' transcreation - clients would pay peanuts to get their seemingly easy marketing material translated, so translators would translate as quickly as possible, i.e. literally. Obviously, the translated text wouldn't have the same impact as the source text, so the client would get back to the translator and complain... Now who wants to tell a cli... See more
Just because a text can be easily understood by anybody, doesn't make it easy to translate IMHO. I've always thought that this attitude made people 'invent' transcreation - clients would pay peanuts to get their seemingly easy marketing material translated, so translators would translate as quickly as possible, i.e. literally. Obviously, the translated text wouldn't have the same impact as the source text, so the client would get back to the translator and complain... Now who wants to tell a client that you only spend so much time on a low-paying project? How to raise awareness that marketing texts take time to translate adequately? Call it "transcreation", charge a higher rate for that fancy new service and have sufficient time to produce a translation that has the same impact as the source text!

So bottom line for me is that spending ages on a translation is as good a reason to charge a high rate as any. You might not need specialist domain knowledge to translate marketing texts, but then a lawyer-linguist might miss the knack to translate marketing copy, so why should I charge less for my time than he charges for his? I totally agree with The Misha here: The worth of a translation is in the eyes of the beholder, and I would think that a prestigious airline values its marketing material and is willing to pay a decent rate for its translation.
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gayd (X)
gayd (X)
transcreation Aug 2, 2017

Nina Esser wrote:

Just because a text can be easily understood by anybody, doesn't make it easy to translate IMHO. I've always thought that this attitude made people 'invent' transcreation - clients would pay peanuts to get their seemingly easy marketing material translated, so translators would translate as quickly as possible, i.e. literally. Obviously, the translated text wouldn't have the same impact as the source text, so the client would get back to the translator and complain... Now who wants to tell a client that you only spend so much time on a low-paying project? How to raise awareness that marketing texts take time to translate adequately? Call it "transcreation", charge a higher rate for that fancy new service and have sufficient time to produce a translation that has the same impact as the source text!

So bottom line for me is that spending ages on a translation is as good a reason to charge a high rate as any. You might not need specialist domain knowledge to translate marketing texts, but then a lawyer-linguist might miss the knack to translate marketing copy, so why should I charge less for my time than he charges for his? I totally agree with The Misha here: The worth of a translation is in the eyes of the beholder, and I would think that a prestigious airline values its marketing material and is willing to pay a decent rate for its translation.


Do you think the outsourcer will agree to pay more just because you're going to spend hours trying to transcreate/rephrase those 6 word sentences? Transcreation is not part of the offering of translation agencies> Have a look on their sites! I have never met a translation agency asking for transcreation. Transcreation is a myth. There is no market for transcreation. it's not because you've paid for a course on transcreation on PROZ that there is a market for transcreation!

[Modifié le 2017-08-02 07:50 GMT]

[Modifié le 2017-08-02 07:52 GMT]


 
Jan Truper
Jan Truper  Identity Verified
Germany
Local time: 11:10
Member (2016)
English to German
... Aug 2, 2017

David GAY wrote:

Do you think the outsourcer will agree to pay more just because you're going to spend hours trying to transcreate/rephrase those 6 word sentences? Transcreation is not part of the offering of translation agencies> Have a look on their sites! I have never met a translation agency asking for transcreation. Transcreation is a myth. There is no market for transcreation.


Wrong.

There is a market for transcreation, and there are outsourcers willing to pay more for time spent.
Such work often includes back translation, explanations and alternate versions.
I get several requests for such work every year.


 
Sheila Wilson
Sheila Wilson  Identity Verified
Spain
Local time: 10:10
Member (2007)
English
+ ...
This is so sad Aug 2, 2017

I'm quite active in the English-speaking online communities of expats, mainly from the EU member states. Obviously, Brexit is the chief topic being discussed at the moment, even surpassing the usual "Where can I buy...?" pleas.

We're hearing so much belittlement of others, simply because they aren't "one of us". Someone might for example have a different skin colour, and/or speak with a strange accent. Maybe they
... See more
I'm quite active in the English-speaking online communities of expats, mainly from the EU member states. Obviously, Brexit is the chief topic being discussed at the moment, even surpassing the usual "Where can I buy...?" pleas.

We're hearing so much belittlement of others, simply because they aren't "one of us". Someone might for example have a different skin colour, and/or speak with a strange accent. Maybe they went to the right school and studied hard, and now play an important role in our society, but they can't today be considered "one of us". Or they might indeed be of the right race and colour but be from the arts side rather than sciences, so to those with a science background, they aren't qualified to be "one of us". Or, worst of all, they might, regardless of race or skin colour, be prepared to work their as**s off doing the menial jobs that those super-qualified sciences guys wouldn't stoop to. Those are regarded as the lowest of the low and yet where would we be without them? Where, in fact, will the UK farms, factories and hospitals be without them?

This is what Brexit is about. This is what Trump is about, for all his appeal to the rednecks. Please, please let's not make it what ProZ.com is about. This world of ours seems to be tearing itself apart at the moment. Why can't we all accept that others are different yet equal? Including translators.
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