Licenciatura = Master's??! Thread poster: S. Kathryn Jiménez Boyd
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Hi everyone,
I'm doing a certified translation (I'm an ATA-certified translator) of the academic transcript for someone who studied Translation & Interpretation at a university in Spain. Apparently they are a fellow translator, albeit for a different language pair. They are asking me to translate "licenciatura" as "Master's Degree". I've always translated "licenciatura" as "Bachelor's Degree" (my U.S. Bachelor's degree was determined to be a "licenciatura" itself and I certainly wouldn't c... See more Hi everyone,
I'm doing a certified translation (I'm an ATA-certified translator) of the academic transcript for someone who studied Translation & Interpretation at a university in Spain. Apparently they are a fellow translator, albeit for a different language pair. They are asking me to translate "licenciatura" as "Master's Degree". I've always translated "licenciatura" as "Bachelor's Degree" (my U.S. Bachelor's degree was determined to be a "licenciatura" itself and I certainly wouldn't consider it to be at a Master's degree level).
I understand that it's 5 years for a licenciatura but I still don't feel it to be up to par to be called a Master's degree. I know this is important for my client because they are applying for PhD programs.
I make my direct clients pay in advance, so he already paid. If I disagree with what he's asking of me, how do I handle the payment?
How would you handle this situation?
Thanks in advance,
Kat ▲ Collapse
| | | | Mervyn Henderson (X) 
Spain
Local time: 20:57
Spanish to English
+ ...
Hi,
You're right, and I'd say "BA" or just "degree" too. As you know, because of the widely publicised "Mastergate" scandals here (yes, the spelling's right) among politicians with fake degrees, and all the mastergatory howling that it caused, they even use the term "máster" in Spanish with nary a raised eyebrow, and I'm willing to bet that the RAE academy, in its academic holiness, has added "máster" to its list of permissible Johnny Foreigner words, along with "selfie" and "infl... See more Hi,
You're right, and I'd say "BA" or just "degree" too. As you know, because of the widely publicised "Mastergate" scandals here (yes, the spelling's right) among politicians with fake degrees, and all the mastergatory howling that it caused, they even use the term "máster" in Spanish with nary a raised eyebrow, and I'm willing to bet that the RAE academy, in its academic holiness, has added "máster" to its list of permissible Johnny Foreigner words, along with "selfie" and "influencer". So, if it's a master's degree, it's a master's degree, otherwise it isn't and it ain't.
And another thing - "they are asking me to translate "licenciatura" as "Master's degree"? Are they now? The other day I gave my plumber specific instructions as to how to go about unblocking my toilet with a compass and a frying pan, and you should see the result. So why don't they just do it themselves? Once you've opened up those flood gates, once you give in to that kind of thing, next time they might ask you to translate a rather rude exclamation as "I crap in the milk".
[Edited at 2021-04-24 06:07 GMT]
[Edited at 2021-04-24 10:12 GMT] ▲ Collapse
| | | | | Put a footnote | Apr 25, 2021 |
Hello everybody,
I understand your client's problem. To illustrate it, you may check this page: https://www.club-mba.com/todo-universidad/equivalencias-titulos/
Here in Ecuador they also award the "licenciado/a", and it is clearly no master's degree, but in other countries it does have a higher standing (e.g. Spain, Mexico and the "Lizenziat"* in... See more Hello everybody,
I understand your client's problem. To illustrate it, you may check this page: https://www.club-mba.com/todo-universidad/equivalencias-titulos/
Here in Ecuador they also award the "licenciado/a", and it is clearly no master's degree, but in other countries it does have a higher standing (e.g. Spain, Mexico and the "Lizenziat"* in Switzerland). Due to this mishmash and the corresponding problems to translate "licenciado/a" into German, the Embassy here as asked us to keep the term untranslated and put an explanatory footnote to it.
I think this might also be a viable solution for you and your client, because it will be up to the university to decide whether they regard his degree as sufficient or not to continue his Ph.D. studies.
Hopefully this helps,
Angelo
* I also found a curious case (https://www.nzz.ch/schweiz/wenn-der-schweizer-abschluss-im-ausland-nicht-anerkannt-wird-ld.1449770) where a Swiss university had issued a certificate that its degree was equivalent to a master's, but nonetheless the National Recognition Information Centre for the United Kingdom refused to recognize it as such, because they were not happy with the study plan. ▲ Collapse
| | | | | Ask the client to justify the translation as a Master's | Apr 25, 2021 |
Here is a source I came across: http://www.studyabroad18.com/articles/masters-degree-in-spain.php
If the client is applying for doctoral programs, you can't translate their degree as a BA. If a "licencitura" is not really equivalent to a MA, then you can't translate as a MA. Make sure the client is not mistaken and ask why they consider their degree equivalen... See more Here is a source I came across: http://www.studyabroad18.com/articles/masters-degree-in-spain.php
If the client is applying for doctoral programs, you can't translate their degree as a BA. If a "licencitura" is not really equivalent to a MA, then you can't translate as a MA. Make sure the client is not mistaken and ask why they consider their degree equivalent to a MA: Maybe there is a concise and convincing answer.
When I did a "Magister Artium" program in Germany, my US BA was considered a "Grundstudium" (= first two years of a theoretically 4 1/2 year program that no one finished in less than five years). That makes sense, because I really only really did two or a little more years of study in my actual field in the US BA program (the rest is general education). Most people also complete their US BA without writing a senior thesis.
So, I had the opposite experience with a similarly structured degree (no intermediate BA, 4+ years in your actual field of study, final thesis, qualification for doctoral programs) in a different country. It may also matter a lot if the client's degree was pre- or post-Bologna, because a lot changed around 2008.
From my experience, I would have guessed that BA would be a far more misleading translation than MA, but as you say, you studied in Spain and they recognized your BA as a "licenciatura," so you have far more relevant experience pointing in the exact opposite direction.
Ask the client to explain or send you a relevant link. ▲ Collapse
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Jessica Noyes
United States
Local time: 14:57
Member
Spanish to English
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| Translating degrees | Apr 25, 2021 |
There is a whole market sector out there that converts foreign degrees into their local equivalents---credential evaluation services. If your client is trying to get into a U.S. Ph.D. program, they will probably need more than a translator's say-so to be considered.
I would italicize Licenciatura, and write "Licenciatura in (subject area in English here)". Then I would put an asterisk beside it and gloss it as "Five-year post-secondary degree".
Here is more information ... See more There is a whole market sector out there that converts foreign degrees into their local equivalents---credential evaluation services. If your client is trying to get into a U.S. Ph.D. program, they will probably need more than a translator's say-so to be considered.
I would italicize Licenciatura, and write "Licenciatura in (subject area in English here)". Then I would put an asterisk beside it and gloss it as "Five-year post-secondary degree".
Here is more information on the tricky process of officially evaluating foreign degrees for admission into U.S. universities.
https://www2.ed.gov/about/offices/list/ous/international/usnei/us/edlite-visitus-forrecog.html
Naturally, you are stuck with the ethical dilemma of whether or not to follow the instructions of a paying client. ▲ Collapse
| | | | Paul Dixon
Brazil
Local time: 15:57
Portuguese to English
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| Another possibility - Brazil | Apr 26, 2021 |
If the source language is Brazilian Portuguese (or if the person mentioned, if a CV, is from Brazil) you should remember that a Licenciatura in Brazil is something completely different. I have a Licenciatura in Mathematics myself.
It is a teaching qualification offered as a complement to an academic course. So if you want to teach History, you need to take the History course (Bacharelado em História) and then complement it with 6 pedagogic subjects, which entitles you to a Licencia... See more If the source language is Brazilian Portuguese (or if the person mentioned, if a CV, is from Brazil) you should remember that a Licenciatura in Brazil is something completely different. I have a Licenciatura in Mathematics myself.
It is a teaching qualification offered as a complement to an academic course. So if you want to teach History, you need to take the History course (Bacharelado em História) and then complement it with 6 pedagogic subjects, which entitles you to a Licenciatura. This case occurs in most courses at USP. A Licenciado can therefore be a teacher and also, say, a historian (having the Bacharelado). The six pedagogical subjects are: Psychology 1 and 2, Didactics, Structure of the Educational System, and Teaching Practice 1 and 2 (practical teaching at a school).
In some courses, like Maths which I studied, the Licenciatura is a separate course rather than just a complement. A Licenciado like me can teach but not be a theoretical mathematician, for which you would need the Pure Maths or Applied Maths courses, without Licenciatura which is unconnected. It has an unconnected curriculum and the same pedagogical subjects. A Licenciando (student for Licenciatura) would take Set Theory and History of Maths, while a Pure Mathematics student would wrack his/her brains out with Partial Differential Equations and Calculus VI.
There is no equivalent in English. The nearest would be a PGCE but a Licenciatura is an undergraduate course and not post-grad like the PGCE. I would simply put 'Teacher Training in Mathematics (Licenciatura - Brazil). Italicise Licenciatura, as this meaning of the term cannot be translated. Add a footnote if you feel this is necessary. ▲ Collapse
| | | | expressisverbis
Portugal
Local time: 19:57
Member (2015)
English to Portuguese
+ ...
In Portugal, Integrated Masters ("Mestrados integrados") or Bachelor-master ("Licenciaturas-mestrado") are courses that combine bachelor and master degrees, with a duration of five years.
They appeared along with the changes made in the Higher Education decided in the European Union (European Higher Education Area) through the Bologna process, which decided on the existence of three degrees: bachelor (three years), master (two years) and doctorate (three to four years).
Could be thi... See more In Portugal, Integrated Masters ("Mestrados integrados") or Bachelor-master ("Licenciaturas-mestrado") are courses that combine bachelor and master degrees, with a duration of five years.
They appeared along with the changes made in the Higher Education decided in the European Union (European Higher Education Area) through the Bologna process, which decided on the existence of three degrees: bachelor (three years), master (two years) and doctorate (three to four years).
Could be this the reason for your client asking you to translate "Licenciatura" as "Master's Degree"?
Please try to ask him this question.
The Bachelor's Degree ("Licenciatura") before the Bologna process consisted of 4 years + 1 year internship.
You can check more info here:
https://www.dges.gov.pt/en?plid=1428
[Edited at 2021-04-26 11:32 GMT] ▲ Collapse
| | | | | Important! Wisdom, convention and suggestions | Apr 26, 2021 |
Wisdom and convention regarding the translation of certificates and diplomas is not to translate a specific title at all.
A translator cannot and should not stand in the shoes of an equivalence commission, which exist for that very purpose.
Furthermore, it is not hard to imagine how overshooting or undershooting the value of a particular qualification may go against the applicant. By way of example, some university qualifications also confer a particular professional title upon the... See more Wisdom and convention regarding the translation of certificates and diplomas is not to translate a specific title at all.
A translator cannot and should not stand in the shoes of an equivalence commission, which exist for that very purpose.
Furthermore, it is not hard to imagine how overshooting or undershooting the value of a particular qualification may go against the applicant. By way of example, some university qualifications also confer a particular professional title upon the holder in the country where it was obtained but not in another country.
I am a certified translator in France and when faced with this, I:
- use the source document term in italics
- add a footnote in which I might indicate, for example, "A "licence" is typically awarded by French universities where a student has successfully completed a three-year course of full-time study". ▲ Collapse
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neilmac
Spain
Local time: 20:57
Spanish to English
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| Wkipedia sez | Apr 26, 2021 |
FWIW, according to Wikipedia, "licenciatura" is the same as a licentiate degree.
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Licentiate_(degree)
I used to get annoyed when my Spanish ex said that my BA degree was only a "diplomado" rather than a "licenciatura"... but not any more.
| | | | Paul Dixon
Brazil
Local time: 15:57
Portuguese to English
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| Curriculum - Licenciatura em Matemática USP | Apr 26, 2021 |
Further to my comment about Licenciatura in Brazil. Most of the subject names are recognisable in English, the ones that may not be have been translated. This is my curriculum at USP (* Common to other licenciaturas; ** Not offered in Bacharelado, *** Common to all USP courses)
Year 1 - Cálculo I, Cálculo II, Vetores e Geometria, Álgebra Linear, Estatística Básica, Introdução à Computação, Física I, Física II.
Year 2 - Álgebra I, Álgebra II, Cálculo III, Funçõ... See more Further to my comment about Licenciatura in Brazil. Most of the subject names are recognisable in English, the ones that may not be have been translated. This is my curriculum at USP (* Common to other licenciaturas; ** Not offered in Bacharelado, *** Common to all USP courses)
Year 1 - Cálculo I, Cálculo II, Vetores e Geometria, Álgebra Linear, Estatística Básica, Introdução à Computação, Física I, Física II.
Year 2 - Álgebra I, Álgebra II, Cálculo III, Funções Analíticas, Estatística Descritiva. Física III, Física IV
Year 3 - Teoria dos Conjuntos (Set Theory)**, Mathematical Logic (Lógica Matemática)**, História da Matemática (History of Mathematics)**, Álgebra III, Geometria I, Geometria II, Psicologia Educacional I*`, Psicologia Educacional II*
Year 4 - Estudo de Problemas Brasileiros (Study of Brazilian Problems) 1 and 2***. Didática*. Prática de Ensino de Matemática 1 and 2** (Teaching Practice in Mathematics)
We also had Portuguese lessons - FLM474. Interestingly, the only courses (apart from languages) that had Portuguese were Mathematics and Engineering. If you studied Biology, Medicine, or even Law, there was no Portuguese in the curriculum. And one semester of mandatory Physical Education, you could choose the sport.
Study of Brazilian Problems was a weekly session of debates about subjects in the news: politics, technology and so on. ▲ Collapse
| | | | | Thanks everyone, I have reached a solution! | Apr 26, 2021 |
Thank you everyone for your very helpful and interesting comments. We've touched on several countries here, so I'm sure this will all be of help to translators facing this issue in the future.
This degree was pre-Bologna, and the client did provide a barrage of resources/links to BOEs that did indicate that Spain considers the pre-Bologna "licenciatura" (300 ECTS) to be equivalent to one of their Master's degrees (Level 3). Today's "grado" is 240 ECTS and a Master's is 60 ECTS, so t... See more Thank you everyone for your very helpful and interesting comments. We've touched on several countries here, so I'm sure this will all be of help to translators facing this issue in the future.
This degree was pre-Bologna, and the client did provide a barrage of resources/links to BOEs that did indicate that Spain considers the pre-Bologna "licenciatura" (300 ECTS) to be equivalent to one of their Master's degrees (Level 3). Today's "grado" is 240 ECTS and a Master's is 60 ECTS, so the math is correct. A good resource for future reference, for many different degrees:
https://www.educacionyfp.gob.es/servicios-al-ciudadano/catalogo/general/20/202058/ficha/202058.html
I still refuse to translate it as a Master's degree, though. As a couple of you suggested, I decided to go the route of leaving the original title in Spanish, with an asterisk, and a translator's note at the bottom reading:
"*A “licenciatura” is a five-year post-secondary
degree with no direct translation into English. It was awarded during the pre-Bologna agreement years. According to Spanish legal frameworks, it is 240 ECTS credits + 60 ECTS credits and therefore equivalent to a Bachelor’s + Master’s degree in the Spanish system."
This is factually correct, and it also gets around my personal opinion that even a proper Spanish Master's degree is kind of a joke compared with other countries' Master's degrees. Disclaimer: I have one so I feel comfortable saying that! No offense intended for anyone who has one and feels differently, I'm sure our programs/universities were just very different!
This way the receiving university can decide for themselves if they are willing to consider this equivalent. After all, it is up to an equivalence commission to really say one thing is equivalent to another. The client was happy with this solution, so it's all good.
Thanks again! ▲ Collapse
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