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Translating names that have already been transliterated into another language
Thread poster: Peter Shortall
Peter Shortall
Peter Shortall  Identity Verified
United Kingdom
Romanian to English
+ ...
May 1, 2021

A solicitor has asked me for a RO-EN translation quote for some certificates (marriage + birth) for a couple who, as far as I can gather, were born in Ukraine, got married there, and later moved to Romania. Romanian marriage and birth certificates were apparently issued to them in Romania many years after they got married.

The names of the husband, the wife and their parents obviously had to be transliterated into the Romanian alphabet.

The solicitor says that she wants
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A solicitor has asked me for a RO-EN translation quote for some certificates (marriage + birth) for a couple who, as far as I can gather, were born in Ukraine, got married there, and later moved to Romania. Romanian marriage and birth certificates were apparently issued to them in Romania many years after they got married.

The names of the husband, the wife and their parents obviously had to be transliterated into the Romanian alphabet.

The solicitor says that she wants the names to be spelt in a particular way in English ("the correct way", as she put it) that differs from the spellings on the Romanian certificates. I assume this is because the names have already been transliterated in this "correct way" (!) on existing English documents that the couple hold, so they want the English spellings to be consistent lest official suspicions are aroused.

The differences are as follows:

- the solicitor wants TS where the certificates feature the Romanian letter Ț (which I always leave 'as is');
- the solicitor wants Y instead of I in a couple of contexts;
- the solicitor wants KS instead of X;
- the solicitor wants K instead of C in certain contexts.

These differences obviously result from the fact that Romanian and English spell certain sounds in different ways, and so Ukrainian names can be transliterated in different ways in the two languages. (In fact, there is more than one way of transliterating Cyrillic script in English alone, but let's not complicate things further...)

I am now mulling over my response. It's not true that the Romanian and English alphabets are "the same" as such, but they are largely so, and so my feeling is that I would be loath - nay, completely unwilling - to use spellings other than those on the Romanian certificates. I'm sure it would be very convenient for the solicitor's clients if I did as she asks, but I feel that the proper course of action in this instance would be to copy the spellings on the Romanian certificates and advise the end clients to explain to the officials that the differences are due to the different ways in which sounds are, or can be, spelt in different languages (Romanian doesn't normally use Y or K except in loanwords and certain proper nouns). Were I to depart from the spellings on the Romanian certificates, and were questions about this choice to be asked of me later on down the line, I fear that "I was just following instructions" would be a rather feeble excuse!

On the other hand, I can well imagine that bloody-minded immigration officials will flatly reject translations with spellings that differ from those on other English documents, so I can understand the solicitor's reasoning. Can you think of better advice to give than what I currently have in mind, as outlined above? I'd like to try to be as helpful as possible, while also doing things by the book (not that there is a book about this particular issue, to my knowledge - would that there were one!) Why the couple want to use these Romanian documents at all, when they must have had Ukrainian ones originally, I just don't know.

[Edited at 2021-05-01 01:56 GMT]
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Samuel Murray
Samuel Murray  Identity Verified
Netherlands
Local time: 03:37
Member (2006)
English to Afrikaans
+ ...
@Peter May 1, 2021

I assume the client is asking for a sworn or notarized translation, otherwise he would have been able to simply make these changes himself after receiving the translation. I'm not a sworn translator myself, but here's my opinion.

With this type of translation, your source text is the source text that was given to you, and not the source text of that source text. This means that your translation should reflect the current source text, including any errors that it may contain, and r
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I assume the client is asking for a sworn or notarized translation, otherwise he would have been able to simply make these changes himself after receiving the translation. I'm not a sworn translator myself, but here's my opinion.

With this type of translation, your source text is the source text that was given to you, and not the source text of that source text. This means that your translation should reflect the current source text, including any errors that it may contain, and regardless of whether there may be other documents to be used along with your translation that use a different spelling or a different phrasing, etc.

The only reason why you could change the spelling of words in such a translation would be due to transliteration from one script to another, but I agree that Romanian uses a Latin alphabet, and the fact that some letters are not known or used in English is no reason to change them. The only exception would be if there are some "official" guidelines in Romania or in Romanian for anglicizing Romanian names. Do you know of such guidelines? (Though this may not satisfy your client, since these guidelines may well yield spellings that are different from what he wants.)

If this was not a sworn translation, then I would have suggested that you consider adding a note to the bottom of each page that states that proper nouns were anglicized in the translation.

I assume this is because ... they want the English spellings to be consistent lest official suspicions are aroused.


First, do not just assume this, even though this may seem like a likely explanation. I suggest that you explain your position to the client without making mention of this assumption. Wait for the client to tell you that this is his reason. Second, surely immigration officials see this sort of thing happen regularly.
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Tina Vonhof (X)
Philip Lees
 
Sadek_A
Sadek_A  Identity Verified
Local time: 06:37
English to Arabic
+ ...
..... May 1, 2021

It happens more often than not that the independent, or immigration-associated, translator delivers the transliteration in a way you wouldn't agree with or that itself doesn't agree with the genuine pronunciation of the source.

In that case, you abide by that transliteration if the same document holding it is the one to be used for processing.

If not, then you provide a fresh, correct transliteration on a new document aimed at that specific processing.

For
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It happens more often than not that the independent, or immigration-associated, translator delivers the transliteration in a way you wouldn't agree with or that itself doesn't agree with the genuine pronunciation of the source.

In that case, you abide by that transliteration if the same document holding it is the one to be used for processing.

If not, then you provide a fresh, correct transliteration on a new document aimed at that specific processing.

For example, person N has a visa of country A with a certain transliteration and another of country B with a different transliteration. One of those 2 visas is about to be used as a supporting document for getting a visa of Country C, in which case you abide by that to-be-used document and overlook the other.

You can give them 2, or even 3, different copies for specific uses. One with the Romanian transliteration, a second with the assumed English one, and perhaps a third with the real correct transliteration if the first two were both faulty and where the documents holding them are not to be used for any processing.

That said, I can't see how and/or why they would be issued new birth and marriage certificates when the 2 events took place somewhere else.
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Liviu-Lee Roth
 
Joakim Braun
Joakim Braun  Identity Verified
Sweden
Local time: 03:37
German to Swedish
+ ...
Perhaps not that important May 1, 2021

I'm a sworn translator from German to Swedish, and know Russian fairly well. If I was given a German document with Russian names, transliterated according to German rules (for instance "Jelzin" for "Ельцин"), then I would probably transliterate it anew ("Jeltsin") and add an explanatory note. I would want to see some Russian documentation, though.

It's not an unreasonable request, and the translator's call IMO, but any changes should be marked in the document.

[Bearbeit
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I'm a sworn translator from German to Swedish, and know Russian fairly well. If I was given a German document with Russian names, transliterated according to German rules (for instance "Jelzin" for "Ельцин"), then I would probably transliterate it anew ("Jeltsin") and add an explanatory note. I would want to see some Russian documentation, though.

It's not an unreasonable request, and the translator's call IMO, but any changes should be marked in the document.

[Bearbeitet am 2021-05-01 11:19 GMT]
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Kaspars Melkis
 
Paweł Hamerski
Paweł Hamerski
Poland
Local time: 03:37
English to Polish
+ ...
the safe way is to transliterate the names as they are in the passports May 1, 2021

or other documents (ID Cards/residence permits) issued in your country.

Kaspars Melkis
 
Adieu
Adieu  Identity Verified
Ukrainian to English
+ ...
Makes some sense May 2, 2021

See, with Latin alphabet languages, we traditionally don't touch names. And we're used to stuff that defies phonetics unless you know the source language pronunciation rules (well-known offenders: French, Polish)

Otoh, Cyrillic-to-Latin involves transcription by the phonetic rules of the target audience. Which may change with the times...or with the target audience.

The members of my family have had Russian foreign passports issued with about 3 or 4 different Latin alph
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See, with Latin alphabet languages, we traditionally don't touch names. And we're used to stuff that defies phonetics unless you know the source language pronunciation rules (well-known offenders: French, Polish)

Otoh, Cyrillic-to-Latin involves transcription by the phonetic rules of the target audience. Which may change with the times...or with the target audience.

The members of my family have had Russian foreign passports issued with about 3 or 4 different Latin alphabet last name spellings (including for the same individual renewing a passport from the same office of the same government agency). My first name has also been transformed 3 times in the last 30 years.


PS and it gets even more fun when you consider that the UKRAINIAN side may have changed their spelling retroactively. People may well have been born with names written with Russian phonetics in Soviet times and later received a new Ukrainian-language spelling (same general alphabet, but a few letters differ, and some are read differently... for example, Russian "ы" is Ukrainian "и", while Russian "и" is Ukrainian "i")

[Edited at 2021-05-02 04:33 GMT]

[Edited at 2021-05-02 04:35 GMT]

[Edited at 2021-05-02 04:38 GMT]
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Kaspars Melkis
 
Adieu
Adieu  Identity Verified
Ukrainian to English
+ ...
Lol my brain is fried from overwork May 2, 2021

I just wrote:

Russian "ы" ИЗ Ukrainian "и"


 
Peter Shortall
Peter Shortall  Identity Verified
United Kingdom
Romanian to English
+ ...
TOPIC STARTER
Reply to Samuel's points May 2, 2021

Thank you all very much for your replies. I'll deal below with some of the points raised, starting with Samuel:

Samuel Murray wrote:

I assume the client is asking for a sworn or notarized translation, otherwise he would have been able to simply make these changes himself after receiving the translation.



The client has asked for a translation "with certification". The body she contacted me through is the ITI, which has its own definition of that ("sworn translation" doesn't exist in the UK). The ITI Code of Conduct says that members "shall not knowingly mistranslate or misinterpret, even if instructed so to do"; the question is whether the request amounts to mistranslation. I initially thought that it does, but as you'll see from the last paragraph of my reply to Joakim below, I'm starting to question whether there is any logic to that view! What I was considering was the idea of offering to translate using the Romanian spellings in the translations, but adding a note explaining Romanian spelling conventions as they would apply to these names of non-Romanian origin and the pronunciation, but I think I'll put that idea to one side for now. The Code of Conduct also says that members "shall not accept work that they believe may further any illegal or criminal activity", and at this point, I can't rule that out.

Samuel Murray wrote:

The only reason why you could change the spelling of words in such a translation would be due to transliteration from one script to another, but I agree that Romanian uses a Latin alphabet, and the fact that some letters are not known or used in English is no reason to change them. The only exception would be if there are some "official" guidelines in Romania or in Romanian for anglicizing Romanian names. Do you know of such guidelines?



No, I know of no such guidelines. I've never even considered the idea of anglicising Romanian names before! And of course, the names are not Romanian.

Samuel Murray wrote:

First, do not just assume this, even though this may seem like a likely explanation. I suggest that you explain your position to the client without making mention of this assumption. Wait for the client to tell you that this is his reason.



Oh, I fully intend to ask about the reason - it's only an initial assumption based on incomplete information, not a final one! Thanks for your reply.

[Edited at 2021-05-02 13:25 GMT]


 
Peter Shortall
Peter Shortall  Identity Verified
United Kingdom
Romanian to English
+ ...
TOPIC STARTER
Reply to Sadek May 2, 2021

Sadek_A wrote:

It happens more often than not that the independent, or immigration-associated, translator delivers the transliteration in a way you wouldn't agree with or that itself doesn't agree with the genuine pronunciation of the source.

In that case, you abide by that transliteration if the same document holding it is the one to be used for processing.


If it's the Romanian document that's going to be used in the UK, and not the original USSR/Ukrainian documents, then I do feel that I can't simply ignore the Romanian spellings without making at least some form of comment. The solicitor says that her desired spellings are the "correct" ones, but who gets to decide what the "correct" spellings are? If her answer is "the UK authorities", then they didn't certify the events as they occurred outside the UK, so what authority do they have here? But the events occurred outside Romania too, which brings me to another point you raise:


That said, I can't see how and/or why they would be issued new birth and marriage certificates when the 2 events took place somewhere else.


Exactly, I don't understand why the authorities of Romania certified births and a marriage that happened in the USSR and Ukraine respectively. The certificates all say "document transcribed" on them, but no further details are given. I think I'm going to be nosy and enquire about that, because if I end up seeking an opinion from the ITI, I may well be asked about this. Thanks for your reply!

[Edited at 2021-05-02 13:37 GMT]


 
Peter Shortall
Peter Shortall  Identity Verified
United Kingdom
Romanian to English
+ ...
TOPIC STARTER
Reply to Joakim May 2, 2021

Joakim Braun wrote:

I'm a sworn translator from German to Swedish, and know Russian fairly well. If I was given a German document with Russian names, transliterated according to German rules (for instance "Jelzin" for "Ельцин"), then I would probably transliterate it anew ("Jeltsin") and add an explanatory note. I would want to see some Russian documentation, though.


If the original documents are in Ukrainian, then there would be no point in my looking at them as I don't work with that language, which has its own variant of the Cyrillic alphabet, so I wouldn't even be competent to decide how the names should be spelt in English. But according to the dates of birth given on the Romanian certificates, the spouses were born at a time when Ukraine was part of the USSR, so the original certificates would have been in Russian, which I do work with (in my experience, certificates issued in Soviet Socialist Republics are bilingual if the republic had two official languages, which all of them except the RSFSR did). However, the couple got married after the break-up of the USSR. I don't think I've ever seen a post-USSR Ukrainian marriage certificate before, but I'd be surprised if they are not written in Ukrainian (if anyone knows different, please correct me!)

Another aspect that bothers me is the fact that the "place of birth" sections of both birth certificates say "COUNTRY (...) UKRAINE", not USSR. That can't be accurate, so the Romanian authorities have not given correct details for the events that they certified; and then there is the question of whether they had any authority to certify them!

To complicate matters even further, the names of the Ukrainian towns of birth have been "Romanianised", i.e. their spellings are based on Romanian spelling conventions, and are different - very different indeed, in one case - from the spellings normally used in English for those towns. Normally, when translating in such a case, I would use the conventional English spellings for names of places that are outside Romania... so if I do that with place names, why not personal names as well? If I try to argue that I can't anglicise the spellings of the personal names on the Romanian documents because they're already in the Latin alphabet, then I will be on very shaky ground, as I certainly can't use that argument for the place names, which I would anglicise. What a linguistic hornets' nest this situation is turning out to be! Thanks for your reply.


 
Christopher Schröder
Christopher Schröder
United Kingdom
Member (2011)
Swedish to English
+ ...
Lawyers ffs May 2, 2021

I would say you're way overthinking this. Ignore the solicitor and put what it says. Immigration weren't born yesterday.

 
Adieu
Adieu  Identity Verified
Ukrainian to English
+ ...
... May 2, 2021

If this is for immigration... Perhaps they just want readable names in the UK?

Also, contrary to what you might think, "place of birth : Ukraine" is quite normal for the Soviet-born.

I was born in Moscow, RSFSR, USSR. Most of my documents nonetheless list "Russia" or "Russian Federation".


 
Sadek_A
Sadek_A  Identity Verified
Local time: 06:37
English to Arabic
+ ...
..... May 2, 2021

Peter Shortall wrote:
If it's the Romanian document that's going to be used in the UK, and not the original USSR/Ukrainian documents, then I do feel that I can't simply ignore the Romanian spellings without making at least some form of comment.

Let's say, for example, Peter is transliterated into Petur in country A and Petar in B, both documents are available with the client for your reference, but B's is the one that will be used for the intended processing. You have no other choice but to respect B's, even if it's a mistransliteration. The authorities of the intended processing don't know about A's nor about your own view of the correct transliteration. They are only concerned with that government-issued paper that is required for their government-mandated processing.

Peter Shortall wrote:
Exactly, I don't understand why the authorities of Romania certified births and a marriage that happened in the USSR and Ukraine respectively.

My knowledge is that even if they were asylum seekers or something of the sort, with no papers whatsoever, Romania still can -within the international cooperation setting- ask Ukraine to validate the couple's statements and issue them Romanian passports accordingly, but new birth and marriage documents? Even if in witness protection, they wouldn't take the risk of going to an external translator, they have their own specialists for that.

Peter Shortall wrote:
The Code of Conduct also says that members "shall not accept work that they believe may further any illegal or criminal activity", and at this point, I can't rule that out.
I think I'm going to be nosy and enquire about that

You need to see all official documents they have that are related to the translation you're handling.

Peter Shortall wrote:
Thanks for your reply!

You're welcome.


 
Liviu-Lee Roth
Liviu-Lee Roth
United States
Local time: 22:37
Romanian to English
+ ...
my 2 c May 2, 2021

My wild guess is that the Ukrainian individual has asked and obtained the Romanian citizenship in order to join the EU. A lot of Moldovans do the same. This is the main reason why they had their birth & marriage certificates transcribed. Now, the question is if the UK is considering the application as coming from a Romanian citizen or Ukrainian citizen. If the UK considers the RO citizenship you keep the RO spelling. If the UK considers the Ukrainian passport, then ... all previous comments are ... See more
My wild guess is that the Ukrainian individual has asked and obtained the Romanian citizenship in order to join the EU. A lot of Moldovans do the same. This is the main reason why they had their birth & marriage certificates transcribed. Now, the question is if the UK is considering the application as coming from a Romanian citizen or Ukrainian citizen. If the UK considers the RO citizenship you keep the RO spelling. If the UK considers the Ukrainian passport, then ... all previous comments are valid.

Lee
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Sadek_A
Adieu
 
Peter Shortall
Peter Shortall  Identity Verified
United Kingdom
Romanian to English
+ ...
TOPIC STARTER
Citizenship May 2, 2021

Liviu-Lee Roth wrote:

My wild guess is that the Ukrainian individual has asked and obtained the Romanian citizenship in order to join the EU. A lot of Moldovans do the same. This is the main reason why they had their birth & marriage certificates transcribed. Now, the question is if the UK is considering the application as coming from a Romanian citizen or Ukrainian citizen. If the UK considers the RO citizenship you keep the RO spelling. If the UK considers the Ukrainian passport, then ... all previous comments are valid.

Lee


Ah, that would explain everything... The wife was born in a town that's within walking distance of the Romanian border, so if she went to Romania to apply for citizenship there, it wouldn't have been a long trip for her!

In the light of that, yes, I think the citizenship they are using for their UK application will be the deciding factor here, so I will ask the solicitor about that. Mulțumesc mult de tot pentru comentariul perspicace, Lee!


Liviu-Lee Roth
 
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Translating names that have already been transliterated into another language







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