| Pages in topic: < [1 2 3 4] > | What language do they speak in Scotland? Thread poster: Monika Rozwarzewska
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| Not convinced that anyone speaks "pure Scots" | Jul 20, 2006 |
Richard Creech wrote:
Thank you Hilary for your comments. But your statement that "NO ONE in modern Scotland speaks only Scots" is something of a non sequitur. I never claimed that there were people who only spoke Scots. But the fact that they don't speak Scots exclusively does not mean that they don't speak Scots in addition to English, in certain situations and with certain individuals. There is an interesting parallel in Ireland, where language politics are even more heated than in Scotland. Apparently, and the Irish government has said as much, there is no one in Ireland who only speaks Irish. That does not of course mean that no one speaks it at all(although not very many do), or that it is any less deserving of respect. The fact that no one is monolingual in a language is a sign of the totality of the subjugation of the particular linguistic group within a centralizing state that through an educational system, the media, and administrative structures has sought to impose a linguisitc and cultural homogeneity throughout its territory.
I think this is an interesting point, Richard. Indeed, there may be people who speak pure Scots amongst themselves. In twenty years of living in Scotland (I've subtracted the years I've spent living abroad), however, I haven't heard one. I've *only ever* heard the code-switching I mentioned, which points more to a dilution of the Scots language with English, or to the frequent use of Scots words by what are essentially native speakers of English. An important distinction between the situation of Scots and your point about Irish is that, to a certain extent, Scots is based on (or has the same roots as) English. Indeed, reading Scots poetry (such as Burns) or the homepage of your Scots link aloud will make it much more comprehensible to many people than it appears at first glance. Listening to it, many people will perceive much of it as heavily-accented English, with just one or two words in each sentence being completely unfamiliar. This similarity facilitates the diglossa phenomenon between the two. The Scottish "equivalent" of Irish Gaelic is NOT Scots - it's Gaelic. THIS is the language spoken in Scotland which bears no resemblance to English and is therefore not part of the everyday code-switching used by Scottish speakers of English (many of whom will proudly tell you that they speak "Scottish" or "Scots", merely because their anti-English sentiments lead them to reject the word "English". I know many people who do this). As a Scot, however, I find Gaelic as incomprehensible as Finnish - another language I have never learned. In my opinion, therefore, your references to Irish or the other Celtic languages are more analogous to Scots Gaelic - it is a distinct and separate minority language which bears no resemblance to English and is therefore not preserved by dilution, code-switching or amalgamation with it and must be preserved by other means, as Irish has been. While I do think it is important to preserve Scots as a part of our heritage, I feel sure that its inclusion (through code-switching) in everyday speech in Scotland will ensure its survival for a long time to come.
PS. I would imagine that the "Scots" listing on Proz does in fact refer to Scots (perhaps for people looking for help with words like the aforementioned "willie-waught"!). I agree that the references to Irish and Gaelic may be confusing - perhaps we could have Gaelic (Scots) and Gaelic (Irish)? (Please correct me if this would be incorrect, Irish speakers!)
[Edited at 2006-07-20 13:16]
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Dear friends,
Let's all thank Monika for opening a thread that has sparked so much interest. I never thought there were so many Scottish members among us. (my co-moderator, by the way, in German>English Kudoz is Scottish - married to an American and living in Germany...yes, go figure).
A fellow moderator has drawn my attention to the latter part of this thread where I see some members have digressed from the main theme, treading on the dangerous ground of the personal.<... See more Dear friends,
Let's all thank Monika for opening a thread that has sparked so much interest. I never thought there were so many Scottish members among us. (my co-moderator, by the way, in German>English Kudoz is Scottish - married to an American and living in Germany...yes, go figure).
A fellow moderator has drawn my attention to the latter part of this thread where I see some members have digressed from the main theme, treading on the dangerous ground of the personal.
Everyone is aware of this so you should all understand why I hid some of the offending posts in their entirety. If the persons concerned would like to write me to ask for an explanation I would gladly answer.
I'm sure Monika has received adequate answers, surely enough food for thought. I will let the thread continue and not close it. However, if some members wish to continue rehashing their personal campaigns, I will not hesitate to close the thread and hide any future remarks.
Folks, let's keep this light-hearted and enlightening. Thank you for your contributions.
Marcus ▲ Collapse
| | | | docteurmab
Local time: 16:08
English to French
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| Quebec perspective | Jul 21, 2006 |
As a native French speaker familiar not only with Scots, but also Medieval English, and Italian, I must beg to differ with the assertion that Scots is as far from English as French is from Italian.
IMHO Scots is to English what Quebec French is to French. Reading written scots for an English speaker is pretty much like a Frenchman reading "Joual" (a written form of the Quebec dialect). But no linguist that I know would say Quebec French is a separate language, although the claim pop... See more As a native French speaker familiar not only with Scots, but also Medieval English, and Italian, I must beg to differ with the assertion that Scots is as far from English as French is from Italian.
IMHO Scots is to English what Quebec French is to French. Reading written scots for an English speaker is pretty much like a Frenchman reading "Joual" (a written form of the Quebec dialect). But no linguist that I know would say Quebec French is a separate language, although the claim pops up from time to time, never very seriously. We have our own accent, our own words; but the language is still French. But it's as hard to understand for, say, Parisians, as Scots would be to someone from Boston. ▲ Collapse
| | | | Monika Rozwarzewska 
United Kingdom
Local time: 21:08
Member (2006)
English to Polish
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TOPIC STARTER
I'm sure Monika has received adequate answers, surely enough food for thought.
Big thanks to all of you for sharing your knowledge. I really appreciate it!
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Textklick
Local time: 21:08
German to English
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In memoriam | The grey area between languages, accents and dialects? | Jul 21, 2006 |
docteurmab wrote:
We have our own accent, our own words; but the language is still French. But it's as hard to understand for, say, Parisians, as Scots would be to someone from Boston.
Well said. This is essentially in line with the statements made by all Scots Prozians in this discussion.
| | | | Monika Rozwarzewska
United Kingdom
Local time: 21:08
Member (2006)
English to Polish
+ ...
TOPIC STARTER | interesting... | Jul 21, 2006 |
In the North and especially the "Highlands and Islands" http://www.hie.co.uk/about-our-area.html, where there are many Gaelic speakers, you will find that people tend to speak beautifully clear English, since English is their second language. There is a much less stronger accent to be heard there than in genteel Edinburgh, to say nothing of the allegedly less-genteel Glasgow.
That is very true for me. I visited the Isle of Skye and I had no problem to communicate - I never had to ask a person to "could you please repeat that". And a charming old lady I stayed at told me that to her, her mother's tongue is Gaelic, not English.
| | | | | If you want to know time.... | Jul 22, 2006 |
....ask someone who's wearing a watch. Otherwise they're just surmising.
Textklick wrote:
"This is essentially in line with the statements made by all Scots Prozians in this discussion."
I agree with texty's view on docteurmab's concisely put perspective.
With just one caveat:
Modern written "Scots" (i.e. English with varying degrees of Scottish local accent) is in my view no more than a bit of phoenetic fun and very often an effec... See more ....ask someone who's wearing a watch. Otherwise they're just surmising.
Textklick wrote:
"This is essentially in line with the statements made by all Scots Prozians in this discussion."
I agree with texty's view on docteurmab's concisely put perspective.
With just one caveat:
Modern written "Scots" (i.e. English with varying degrees of Scottish local accent) is in my view no more than a bit of phoenetic fun and very often an effective wind-up for intellectual tourists, both real and cybernetic.
The likelyhood of ever coming across two texts by different authors using even remotely the same spelling is very slim.
Beware the dry irony of Scottish tongue-in-cheek humour and don't be sucked in by it! ▲ Collapse
| | | | Textklick
Local time: 21:08
German to English
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In memoriam | References of note? | Jul 22, 2006 |
One of the 59 million entries in the 20 volumes of the Oxford English Dictionary(http://www.oed.com/about) reads as follows:
Scots
...a. The distinguishing epithet of the dialect of English spoken by the inhabitants of the Lowlands of Scotland. Also absol. as n., the Scottish dialect....
This (slightly outdated) Encyclopædia Britannica quote r... See more One of the 59 million entries in the 20 volumes of the Oxford English Dictionary(http://www.oed.com/about) reads as follows:
Scots
...a. The distinguishing epithet of the dialect of English spoken by the inhabitants of the Lowlands of Scotland. Also absol. as n., the Scottish dialect....
This (slightly outdated) Encyclopædia Britannica quote reads as follows:
Scots language
also called LOWLAND SCOTTISH,or Lallans, the historic language of the people of Lowland Scotland, and one closely related to English, of which it can now be regarded as a dialect. Scots is directly descended from Northern English, which displaced Scottish Gaelic in most of Scotland in the 11th-14th century as a consequence of Anglo-Norman rule there. By the early 14th century Northern English had become the spoken tongue of all Scottish people east and south of the Highlands (with Scottish Gaelic continuing to be used in the latter). After Scotland gained its independence in 1328, its spoken language became known as "Scottis," or Scots (as opposed to "Inglis"), and over the next two centuries the former diverged from Northern English in pronunciation and to a lesser extent in vocabulary. The earliest written records in Scots date from the late 14th century, and by the 16th century it had supplanted Latin as the principal literary and record-keeping language in the kingdom. Scots was steadily Anglicized from the mid-16th century onward as a result of the cultural, economic, and political dominance of England, and by the 20th century it could be regarded as merely a regional dialect of English. The Scottish dialect is distinguished by the use of trilled r's, shortened vowels, and simplified diphthongs.
(Encyclopedia Britannica.com, June 2000)
I prefer not to vouch either way for the accuracy of these works, since this could result in tiresome and meaningless argument with - to say nothing of subjugation by - internationally acclaimed experts.
Sorry if the bold bits come out funny in this entry. I cannae write HTML very well, let alone speak it: d'ye know whit I mean?
[Edited at 2006-07-22 12:21]
[Edited at 2006-07-22 12:25] ▲ Collapse
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| Whit's ane o' thae? (yin a' them) (wan o' they) (one of those)? | Jul 22, 2006 |
Texty writ (quoted):
"The Scottish dialect is distinguished by the use of trilled r's, shortened vowels, and simplified diphthongs."
What is a simplified dipthong please?
Is that Welsh?
Is it something these honourable but brutally marginalised serfs (although not as marginalised as the 120 trillion speakers of Scots who have to pay twenty times as much to travel to Twickenham (London) for the rugby) have to wear during the sheep dipping?
| | | | Textklick
Local time: 21:08
German to English
+ ...
In memoriam | Apologies... | Jul 22, 2006 |
Gareth McMillan wrote:
Texty writ (quoted):
"The Scottish dialect is distinguished by the use of trilled r's, shortened vowels, and simplified diphthongs."
What is a simplified dipthong please?
for the unforgivable inconsistency in my above entry, which included both "Encyclopædia Britannica" and "Encyclopedia Britannica.com". Blame it on the Internet.
To be quite honest, I'm not sure which is the simplified one or which is the big yin.
| | | | Jason Ma
China
Local time: 04:08
English to Chinese
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| Non-Queen's English | Feb 19, 2007 |
Thanks for the thought-provoking question. Of course, Non-Queen's English.
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