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How many languages are too many for a child? The case of Luxembourg
Thread poster: Veronica Durbaca
Marcus Geibel
Marcus Geibel
Germany
Local time: 14:38
English to German
Some scientific/theoretical thought Sep 19, 2008

A couple of years ago I dug into the theory of learning languages, especially of children acquiring a foreign language.
It seems that it does not matter how many languages you teach a kid - even starting right from the day of its birth - because the developing brain is able to sort out the different languages perfectly well. It depends on HOW you do it- and it is important to do it in a natural, mother-tongue-like way, naming the things the child is playing with and the like, just learning
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A couple of years ago I dug into the theory of learning languages, especially of children acquiring a foreign language.
It seems that it does not matter how many languages you teach a kid - even starting right from the day of its birth - because the developing brain is able to sort out the different languages perfectly well. It depends on HOW you do it- and it is important to do it in a natural, mother-tongue-like way, naming the things the child is playing with and the like, just learning by doing and touching things.
Bringing your child into contact with a bunch of languages has a couple of benefits for its development - there are countless links created in the child's brain in early stages of its life (which will become far more difficult from the age of 6-8 on and will decrease from 10-12 years on) that strengthen its cognitive abilities; learning languages improves logical understanding - even maths will be easier to learn, as has been proven in science; having a base knowledge of a language from an early phase of the child's life will make it easier to remember the very same should it be needed some day in the future, obscured though it might be in the meantime; and many many more...

BUT...Tomás is perfectly right: Give your child all the love, understanding, hugs and kisses you can and let it be a - child! No language boot camp, please! And you will see, your child will acquire all the different languages easily enough.
And who knows - some day even Luxembourghish might turn out to be a valuable asset.

Don`t worry, you can't overload your child's brain if you allow it to learn in the child-like way, just the same as it learns everything else.

All the best!
Marcus
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Berni Armstrong
Berni Armstrong  Identity Verified
Spain
Local time: 14:38
Member
English
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Effort? What effort? Sep 20, 2008

Hi Veronica,

I think you are focusing on this from an adult perspective. Those of us who learned langauges as adults remember just how much effort was involved (even if the rewards made it all worth it in the end). For kids your child's age, there is no effort involved at all. They just absorb the languages around them.

As for learning, then forgetting... Well, as a young child I lived on a compound in Lagos Nigeria surrounded by Greek and German children. Apparently,
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Hi Veronica,

I think you are focusing on this from an adult perspective. Those of us who learned langauges as adults remember just how much effort was involved (even if the rewards made it all worth it in the end). For kids your child's age, there is no effort involved at all. They just absorb the languages around them.

As for learning, then forgetting... Well, as a young child I lived on a compound in Lagos Nigeria surrounded by Greek and German children. Apparently, we all used to regularly chat away in each other's languages. I then forgot both languages completely when I was sent to an English only school.

However, twenty years later when I had a German girlfriend and made the first hesitant steps in "studying" the language of my liebling... Well, unbelievably, things came back to me and she said my accent was really good: "It sounds like you are from Hamburg!" (Where many of my German childhood friends came from).

So, basically, don't worry! Your kid will sort it all out with no effort at all and therefore there will be no effort wasted in learning a language which "is not so useful" (*)


(*) PS. Don't you think the idea that some languages are more useful than others is a slippery slope to the kind of cultural imperialism that minority language speakers suffer in many countries throughout the world?
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Sheila Wilson
Sheila Wilson  Identity Verified
Spain
Local time: 13:38
Member (2007)
English
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Some languages are only useful (normally) within their spoken area Sep 20, 2008

Berni Armstrong wrote:

Don't you think the idea that some languages are more useful than others is a slippery slope to the kind of cultural imperialism that minority language speakers suffer in many countries throughout the world?


I believe that minority languages have a place in their communities - I'm not trying to stamp them out. However, I also see the downside here in the South of France, where some children are sent to Occitan-speaking schools. They learn French as an after-thought and English even less so and, as a specialist in seeking employment for young French unemployed, I can see how much even French-educated job-seekers regret not having had a better international education. The one lad I know who is being educated in Occitan is now 12 and his written French is completely incomprehensible. I also know an Irish-educated man who is very bitter at the brake this put on his prospects.

I know Dutch doesn't count as a minority language, but the Dutch are the first to accept that Dutch at home is great for their kids, but that they absolutely must speak English, to the extent that learning Dutch as an expatriate is quite difficult - the locals expect and prefer to communicate in English.

For a foreigner living in Luxembourg, stating that they are likely to move on at some time, I don't see how Luxembourghish is likely to be as useful to their child as French, for example. Of course, it's different for those who are native speakers - they have it as part of their heritage.


 
Alexandra Goldburt
Alexandra Goldburt
Local time: 06:38
English to Russian
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Agree, agree, agree! (with Tomás) Sep 21, 2008

Tomás Cano Binder wrote:

My honest opinion? If you are concerned about their professional future and development in life, at this stage make sure that your children are tremendously happy, get lots of hugs and kisses, laugh a lot, play a lot with you and the rest of the family, and have some time to hang around doing nothing. Playing, growing as a happy person and enjoying frequent and BIG expresions of love to him/her is the best you can to for his/her intelligence, balance and professional and personal success in life.

Don't worry too much if your child does not speak everything perfectly at this stage. Let them be children for a while! They will have plenty of time in life to learn more languages and other things!


Tomás, I cannot thank you enough for saying what you've said. Of course, I say it from the perspective of devote homeschooling parent (my middle daughter, homeschooled from the age of 11, is now 20 and is about to graduate from University with a BA in Arts next spring; the youngest one, now 10, had been homeschooled until recently, and only last year started to attend a very small private school), and a reader of such "controversial books", such as "Better Late than Early" by Dr. Raymond S. Moore, "Summerhill: A Radical Approach to Child Rearing" by A.S. Neil, and "Instead of Education" by John Holt. (It is only by the strict act of self-discipline that I name three books instead of fifty).

My youngest daughter actually was trilingual at the age of 3: Russian (my native language), Spanish (the language of her father and nanny) and English (the language of just about everyone around her). By now, she lost most of her Spanish - divorce, no more nanny, and no children around her who speak Spanish to her, and only knows enough Russian to tell me her secrets when we are in a public place. I do not worry about it. At some point later in life, she'll re-learn Russian and/or Spanish, if she so chooses - I'm not going to force her to do so.

My own experience with learning languages: I started to learn English at the age of 25, when I came to the U.S., and Spanish at the age of 27. True, there is room for improvement, but I can say that I know both fairly well.

True, adult mind is not as sponge-like as child's mind, but an adult has something that children lack: motivation and self-discipline.

Bottom line: Veronika, if I were you, I would stop worrying! If you love your daughter enough, she'll turn out all right. You might also consider postponing kindergarten - three years old seems awfully early for me, as she needs plenty of time to be a child, and to have a lot of unstructured play.


 
Berni Armstrong
Berni Armstrong  Identity Verified
Spain
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Effortlessly... Sep 21, 2008

Alexandra Goldburt wrote:
....(The) adult mind is not as sponge-like as child's mind, but an adult has something that children lack: motivation and self-discipline.


My whole point though is that language learning for kids does not require such adult concepts as you outlined Alexandra. Their motivation is just to communicate with whoever is attempting to communicate with them. They absorb the languages used around them effortlessly. There is no self-discipline involved, thankfully


 
Berni Armstrong
Berni Armstrong  Identity Verified
Spain
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All languages are equal... Sep 21, 2008

...but some are more equal than others?

Sheila, I think speakers of minority languages might not find your arguments very compelling. Weighing up languages as "useful", or not, is something dominant language speakers have a habit of doing and the result is often: "If it isn't useful it can go to the wall!"

For every disgruntled Gaelic speaker you might meet I am sure you would find 99 who were glad their parents gave them the gift of a rich culture with a heritage going
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...but some are more equal than others?

Sheila, I think speakers of minority languages might not find your arguments very compelling. Weighing up languages as "useful", or not, is something dominant language speakers have a habit of doing and the result is often: "If it isn't useful it can go to the wall!"

For every disgruntled Gaelic speaker you might meet I am sure you would find 99 who were glad their parents gave them the gift of a rich culture with a heritage going way back beyond the "upstart" new kid on the block "English".

Your Occitan speaking lad would find he could communicate surprisingly well with his Catalan / Valencian speaking cousins right down as far as Alicante who speak a language spoken by far more people than speak Danish - which no-one could declare a "minority" language either, could they?

If Veronica is not planning to leave Luxembourg in a hurry, then won't her child fit in better with the locals if she speaks the local language?
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Alexandra Goldburt
Alexandra Goldburt
Local time: 06:38
English to Russian
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No disagreement here Sep 21, 2008

Berni Armstrong wrote:

Alexandra Goldburt wrote:
....(The) adult mind is not as sponge-like as child's mind, but an adult has something that children lack: motivation and self-discipline.


My whole point though is that language learning for kids does not require such adult concepts as you outlined Alexandra. Their motivation is just to communicate with whoever is attempting to communicate with them. They absorb the languages used around them effortlessly. There is no self-discipline involved, thankfully



This is true - children learn effortlessly what is around them, what is part of their daily lives. This is a natural way of learning: no drills, no exercises, no discipline (self or otherwise).

The problem starts when parents introduce formal education too early. The mistaken logic here is: humans learn better while they are children, therefore, let me put my 3 years old into French class, and music class, and computer class... I've actually seen many cases like this, and it makes me sad, as children are robbed of their childhood.

My point here is this: if a child learns different languages, no matter how many, by simply living her daily life - great. But if she doesn't, please don't push "early learning" on her, as formal learning (of anything, not just languages) requires maturity, which small children simply don't have.

And, by the way, children forget languages just as effortlessly as they have learned them. On the other hand, I don't think any one of us who learned a language as an adult because of his/her own free choice will ever forget it.


 
Berni Armstrong
Berni Armstrong  Identity Verified
Spain
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Ah I see what you meant... Sep 21, 2008

Alexandra Goldburt wrote:
....The mistaken logic here is: humans learn better while they are children, therefore, let me put my 3 years old into French class, and music class, and computer class... I've actually seen many cases like this, and it makes me sad, as children are robbed of their childhood.


Now you put it that way, I'm behind you all the way!


And, by the way, children forget languages just as effortlessly as they have learned them. On the other hand, I don't think any one of us who learned a language as an adult because of his/her own free choice will ever forget it.


Ah, if that were only true! I put some effort into learning Portuguese before visiting Lisbon some five years back. Now, I can still read Portuguese. But I can't hold a conversation in the language like I was proud of having done back in Lisboa!

As for German.... I have re-learnt basic German twice for separate visits ... but now, ten years after my last visit... there is no way I'd even attempt to converse in the language! Sigh... I think you can only remain fluent in a language by constant exposure to it. More's the pity!


 
Melina Kajander
Melina Kajander
Finland
English to Finnish
+ ...
So true, Alexandra... Sep 23, 2008

Alexandra Goldburt wrote:
My point here is this: if a child learns different languages, no matter how many, by simply living her daily life - great. But if she doesn't, please don't push "early learning" on her, as formal learning (of anything, not just languages) requires maturity, which small children simply don't have.


Ahh, if someone would just tell that to UK education system (and most parents here as well)!!
Formal learning in this country starts way, way too early... And can easily destroy one's childhood.


 
Sheila Wilson
Sheila Wilson  Identity Verified
Spain
Local time: 13:38
Member (2007)
English
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I don(t really disagree with you, Berni Sep 23, 2008

Berni Armstrong wrote:

Your Occitan speaking lad would find he could communicate surprisingly well with his Catalan / Valencian speaking cousins


The problem with the lad in question is that he was only introduced to Occitan at secondary school, having one Spanish and one French parent. At 11, a child has to LEARN a language rather than absorb it, and this lad does not live in an area where Occitan is spoken on a day-to-day basis. Of course, if he had Occitan as a native language and/or lived in an Occitan-speaking community, then it would have some value.

I think a lot depends on whether the particular child in question will really need the local language. If many of his/her potential playmates are native of this language then go for it - they have everything to gain and nothing to lose. However, if they are living in an expatriate community then why complicate matters?

The child concerned here is very young - I can only comment that my son was bored stiff in England at the age of 7, being a vey precocious kid, but actually developed all sorts of stress symptoms in the Netherlands at the French school during the first term, although he came top in French dictation at the end of the term. He certainly found learning two new languages a challenge - it didn't do him any long-term harm, but it is something a parent should consider.


 
Alexandra Goldburt
Alexandra Goldburt
Local time: 06:38
English to Russian
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Thank you for saying this, Melina Sep 23, 2008

Melina Kajander wrote:

Alexandra Goldburt wrote:
My point here is this: if a child learns different languages, no matter how many, by simply living her daily life - great. But if she doesn't, please don't push "early learning" on her, as formal learning (of anything, not just languages) requires maturity, which small children simply don't have.


Ahh, if someone would just tell that to UK education system (and most parents here as well)!!
Formal learning in this country starts way, way too early... And can easily destroy one's childhood.


It seems to be a global trend now. Here in California, there is a movement for universal preschool - something that many parents, myself included, fiercely resist. So far, the opposition to universal preschool has succeeded - but how knows for how long... "early [formal] learning" is in vogue, in spite of all the evidence of how much it harms the child.


 
Ramon Somoza
Ramon Somoza  Identity Verified
Spain
Local time: 14:38
Dutch to Spanish
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I don't see the problem Oct 4, 2008

Let me give you a practical example: my own family.

I was born is Spain, as were my three sisters and one of my brothers. When I was seven, we moved to Holland. There, two of my brothers were born. At home we spoke (usually) Spanish. We learned Dutch mainly on the street, and a little bit at school (just the grammar, to be honest).

I, my sisters and my brother went first to the German school, where we were learning German and English. After 7 years, my father moved us t
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Let me give you a practical example: my own family.

I was born is Spain, as were my three sisters and one of my brothers. When I was seven, we moved to Holland. There, two of my brothers were born. At home we spoke (usually) Spanish. We learned Dutch mainly on the street, and a little bit at school (just the grammar, to be honest).

I, my sisters and my brother went first to the German school, where we were learning German and English. After 7 years, my father moved us to the French school, where we learned French and English. (And yes, my first year at the French school was reaaaaly crazy).

So by the time we went to university, all of us spoke fluently five languages, except the youngest, who speaks only four.

And as an adult then I started learning also Russian and Arabian, but that did cost much more effort, and is worth another story...

So don't worry about kids learning languages or getting them confused... on the contrary, it is an opportunity that you are giving your children! And children are very quick learners. Just make sure that when you address them in one language, you only speak in that particular language until you have finished the conversation. For a different conversation, you may use a different language. And make sure that your child answers in the same language, and correct eventual words in a different language. With this simple rule, your child will have a head start in life...
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Veronica Durbaca
Veronica Durbaca  Identity Verified

English to Romanian
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TOPIC STARTER
Yes, but... Oct 9, 2008

Alexandra, here children start going to school at 4 (!!). I find this very surprising, since in Romania they start at 6 or 7... If she is to start school this early, we thought that she would needs exposure to Luxembourgish way before school starts. On the other hand, I never thought of the possibility of homeschooling. Nevertheless, I am reluctant on having her start real school at 4, when children this age go to kindergarten and play all day (or almost) in many other countries...

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Alexandra, here children start going to school at 4 (!!). I find this very surprising, since in Romania they start at 6 or 7... If she is to start school this early, we thought that she would needs exposure to Luxembourgish way before school starts. On the other hand, I never thought of the possibility of homeschooling. Nevertheless, I am reluctant on having her start real school at 4, when children this age go to kindergarten and play all day (or almost) in many other countries...

And yes, we have changed our minds about her learning Luxembourgish. Maybe it's not such a bad idea after all.

But by no means shall we make her go to any classes, language or other. She's only two years old (and her creche teacher complains that she doesn't sit still like the 3 and 4 year olds). Well, of course she doesn't Real classes would do her more harm than good, no question about it.

In the end, I would like to thank you all for answering my questions!
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Adam Lankamer
Adam Lankamer  Identity Verified
Poland
Local time: 14:38
Member (2005)
English to Polish
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Pre-school, not school ;-) Oct 9, 2008

Before the age of 6 it's a regular/standard pre-school education available/present all over the world.
The only difference is that in Luxembourg such pre-school education (ecole maternelle) is obligatory.

It's really not a big deal for a child.
And it's a perfect entree to regular schooling which starts at the age of 6.

Adam


 
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How many languages are too many for a child? The case of Luxembourg






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