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Glossary entry

French term or phrase:

parties communes de l’assiette de la propriété

English translation:

common parts within the curtilage of the property

Added to glossary by AllegroTrans
Mar 6, 2020 14:19
4 yrs ago
46 viewers *
French term

parties communes de l’assiette de la propriété

French to English Law/Patents Real Estate property sale (France) of mixed-use building
The text is proceded by a statement that the seller made a property division so that two different parts of the building come under two different tax regimes - one part for commercial use and the other for residential use.

Par suite le VENDEUR déclare qu’à chacun des lots ci-dessus ne sont pas affectées de parties communes de l’assiette de la propriété et qu’il ne s’agit donc pas d’un état descriptif de division au sens de l’article 7 de la loi du 04 Janvier 1955 sur la réforme de la publicité foncière.
Proposed translations (English)
4 +2 common parts within the perimeter of the property
4 common floorspace
4 -2 any common parts of the property's tax base
References
L’assiette de la propriété immobilière
Change log

Mar 9, 2020 20:16: AllegroTrans changed "Edited KOG entry" from "<a href="/profile/626010">AllegroTrans's</a> old entry - "parties communes de l’assiette de la propriété"" to ""common/communal parts within the curtilage of the property""

Discussion

B D Finch Mar 9, 2020:
@Asker Note that they are "common", rather than "communal," parts, because they are held in common or reserved for common use.
Daryo Mar 8, 2020:
@ SafeTex just on its own "affecté de" could be interpreted the way you are suggesting.

But it wouldn't work for the whole of:

"à chacun des lots ci-dessus ne sont pas affectées de (des?) parties communes de l’assiette de la propriété"

which in effect says that there no links of the type "one part allocated to another part" exist regarding these two newly created lot.

It doesn't say at all whether is or not any "parties communes de l’assiette de la propriété" that could have been "allocated" to any of these two news lots - only that no links of that kind exist.

Another point of method: there is in this ST a mention of taxation (different taxation of residential and of commercial properties) B_U_T the concept of "l’assiette de la propriété" has ONLY to do with the physical description of the whole lot (plot of land) IOW "l'assiette = l'assiette de l'impôt" is a completely wrong association for this ST
Tony M Mar 8, 2020:
@ SafeTex No, that's the whole point: that would be the wrong preposition in FR: it is 'affecter à...', and as you can see, the 'à' does in fact appear at the head of the sentence, which is why you need to analyse it by re-parsing as I've suggested below. What makes it curious is the use of the passive voice with what (in FR) is basically an intransitive verb, whence the awkward construction.
SafeTex Mar 8, 2020:
@Tony and all Hello

The problem seems to be how "affecté de" is translated

I think it is "designated as" rather than "affected by/ or allocated to"

Then, everything makes sense, he is selling two private lots
Tony M Mar 8, 2020:
@ SafeTex However "sure" you may be, the source text specifically states otherwise; you can't simply modify the source text so it fits your own interpretation!
SafeTex Mar 8, 2020:
@ Tony and all Boof, I think for selling purposes they are not designated as "common space" but I'm sure they have "common space/installations" allotted/attached to them for reasons I've already given.
Adrian MM. Mar 8, 2020:
You cannot normally sell "parties communes" ..... as they don't belong to you > Compare 'copropriété' tenure (state of possession) and a marketable commonhold 'share of the freehold' = of the common parts in the UK.

Les parties communes sont les parties des bâtiments et des terrains affectées à l'usage ou à l'utilité de tous les copropriétaires ou de plusieurs d'entre eux, *qui les possèdent donc en indivision.*
https://droit-finances.commentcamarche.com/contents/1070-les...
Tony M Mar 8, 2020:
@ SafeTex Ah, I think you are missing out a small but vital detail there: the phrase starts with 'à', so needs to be read as: "de parties communes ... ne sont pas affectées ...à chacun des lots ci-dessus" — i.e. the 'lots' do not have 'parties communes' attached to them.
SafeTex Mar 8, 2020:
@ Daryo and all I think you have got it the wrong way round. The question was about "chacun des lots ci-dessus NE sont PAS affectées de parties communes de l’assiette de la propriété

I don't see the problem. You cannot normally sell "parties communes" as they don't belong to you

So the "floorspace" or "surface areas" that he is selling -les lots - are not designated (ne sont pas affectés de...) "parties communes de l’assiette de la propriété"

= The spaces for sale are not designated as "common floorspace/surface area"
Daryo Mar 8, 2020:
yes, but ... HERE it's about "parties communes de l’assiette de la propriété" i.e. ONLY "les parties communes" that show on "l’assiette de la propriété" - on the two-dimensional map of the whole lot.

That would exclude "les "parties communes" that have above or underneath them any "private" or "commercial" space, i.e. "les "parties communes" inside the building.
SafeTex Mar 7, 2020:
@Tony Roofs are "parties communes" as when they leak, everyone under them pays to fix them, not just the flat(s) immediately underneath? But I take your point that this is more about floor space
As for the layout, technically it could be possible to not share space or equipment but that would even mean that there would have to be separate driveways, ventilation systems and drains.
We had to intervene last week here on a drain (puisard) and the whole "entrée" (our residence is divided into entrances) had to pay for this.
This is why I think the answer should be "designated as"
Tony M Mar 7, 2020:
@ SafeTex Ah, but that's not what 'parties communes' means! Obviosuly it doesn't have anything to do with a shared roof over the building etc. It specifically means 'floor area', and includes things like a shared entrance hall or staircase: but if the property has been divided in a certain way, it is perfectly possible for both parts to have separate entrances, separate staircases, etc. and hence not NEED to have any 'shared space'.
Obviously, if there were shared space, then it would create an issue if being taxed at 2 different rates...
SafeTex Mar 6, 2020:
@ Phil and all Hello

On what Phil says, namely:

Er... no! That's not what is says: what it actually means is that neither of the 'lots' has any 'communal areas' allocated to it (as would normally be the case in say a block of flats) — I haven't looked up the text of that Law to get any more explanation

I'm not entirely sure that this is right.

i think it is more that "neither of the lots is designated as common parts" or in other words, the lots do indeed belong to the owner to sell.

My hunch is partly based on the French itself but also partly on common sense and my own experience as a "membre sydnicale" where I live.

I can't imagine a private lot that has no communal parts "allocated to it". That would mean no common staircase, no common garden, no common water or electrical systems, no common roof on the top floor, no common foundations etc.

So that's my take on it but I'm open to alternative views.
Daryo Mar 6, 2020:
you still need a translation for "l’assiette de la propriété" ....

There might well be some "parties communes de l’assiette de la propriété" (not just any "parties communes", only those showing on the map of "l’assiette de la propriété"), but they are simply kept separate from these two new lots - not allocated to any of them.
AllegroTrans (asker) Mar 6, 2020:
Thanks 'old regulars' P and T I'm happy to award points to either of you, but yes, your contributions answer the question
philgoddard Mar 6, 2020:
That's what I said, but perhaps I wasn't clear enough. There are no common parts that would have to be split between the two regimes.
Tony M Mar 6, 2020:
@ Phil Er... no! That's not what is says: what it actually means is that neither of the 'lots' has any 'communal areas' allocated to it (as would normally be the case in say a block of flats) — I haven't looked up the text of that Law to get any more explanation
philgoddard Mar 6, 2020:
I think you've largely answered your own question. There are two different parts with two tax regimes, and no overlap ("parties communes") between them.

Proposed translations

+2
2 days 6 hrs
Selected

common parts within the perimeter of the property

This is not just floor areas, but also outdoor areas that constitute common parts.

http://www.legislation.gov.uk/uksi/2008/2852/schedule/3/part...
In relation to land within the perimeter of an airport which consists of common parts,—. (a)for those parts not within a building or to which passengers are ...

http://www.legislation.gov.uk/uksi/1998/494/note/made?view=p...
(c)now specifies the provision of car parking facilities within the perimeter of an ... The Regulations now identify common parts of domestic premises as a case in ...

https://www.canarywharfcleaners.co.uk/keeping-communal-areas...
Common parts are usually shared areas of land or residential property. They do not ... Grounds within the perimeter of the block. OCERHB0 ...

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Note added at 2 days 18 hrs (2020-03-09 08:43:00 GMT)
--------------------------------------------------

Thanks to Adrian:
common parts within the curtilage of the property
Peer comment(s):
agree Adrian MM. : within the curtilage. legalistically speaking.....
19 mins
Thanks Adrian. Yes: "curtilage" is the right word!
neutral SafeTex : Parts can be installations and Daryo has said that this "assiette" is the "surface in a two-dimensional" plan
3 hrs
Common parts would include installations within those common parts, so the floor area would include the light fittings. It's the 3D reality as it maps onto the 2D plan.
agree Daryo
1 day 4 hrs
Thanks Daryo
Something went wrong...
4 KudoZ points awarded for this answer. Comment: "Thank you BD"
-2
12 hrs

any common parts of the property's tax base

assiette = tax base
Peer comment(s):
disagree Daryo : misinterpretation of "l’assiette" - it's NOT a case of "l'assiette = l'assiette de l'impôt" it's "l’assiette de la propriété" // What's the point of finding relevant references if they are to be ignored (or misinterpreted)?
21 hrs
disagree B D Finch : No this is about the actual physical area occupied by the property.
1 day 17 hrs
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18 hrs

common floorspace

Based on Daryo's reference about assiette, I'd translate this as "floorspace".
Otherwise, I've explained in the discussion why you cannot say anything like "has no common space allocated to it". All units in a shared building tend to have some common space (and equipment) allocated to it.
See my sample sentence for further clarification
Example sentence:

none of the floorspace is designated as common property

Peer comment(s):
neutral Daryo : If I was sure of the right translation, I would have put an answer // "floorspace" wouldn't work outside of buildings (lawns, parkings, tennis courts, communal swimming pool etc ...)
15 hrs
There are no communal parts being sold so "communal swimming pool" makes no sense but the rest of the remark is very pertinent. They could possibly be selling off one or two private lots that are like you say. So maybe common "surface areas" ?
neutral B D Finch : It also covers outdoor areas.
1 day 12 hrs
Daryo said the same above so I suggested "surface areas".
Something went wrong...

Reference comments

6 hrs
Reference:

L’assiette de la propriété immobilière

(B). A. L’assiette de la propriété immobilière

L’assiette de la propriété immobilière est un terrain, c’est-à-dire une surface en deux dimensions, qui peut être délimitée horizontalement. Le principe est donc celui de la bi-dimensionnalité, ce qui permet de représenter les propriétés immobilières sur un plan. Ainsi, le cadastre représente-t-il les propriétés immobilières d’une commune sur un plan en deux dimensions. Cette parcelle est également appelée «terrain d’assiette», étant entendu que les droits sur ce dernier déterminent les droits sur les constructions et les plantations. Ainsi, à propos d’un immeuble collectif soumis au statut de la copropriété des immeubles bâtis, on peut remarquer que le sol, partie commune, est indivis entre les différents copropriétaires. En matière de publicité foncière, un document important permet alors de connaître plus précisément l’assiette des droits de chaque copropriétaire: l’état descriptif de division, qui permet d’identifier les différents locaux au sein d’un même bâtiment.

La délimitation du terrain d’assiette est alors extrêmement importante. Des litiges peuvent s’élever entre des propriétaires voisins relativement à la limite séparant deux terrains. Une action en bornage permettra alors de fixer cette limite. L’article 646 du Code civil dispose ainsi que «tout propriétaire peut obliger son voisin au bornage de leurs propriétés contiguës».

Lorsque les limites sont connues, elles peuvent être matérialisées par une clôture. L’article 647 permet à tout propriétaire de clore son héritage

https://lextenso-etudiant.fr/sites/default/files/DroitDesBie...

Chemin :

Décret n°55-22 du 4 janvier 1955 portant réforme de la publicité foncière
Chapitre I : Dispositions générales
Section II : Mesures tendant à assurer l'exactitude du fichier immobilier.

Article 7
Modifié par Ordonnance n°2010-638 du 10 juin 2010 - art. 14
Lorsqu'il réalise ou constate une division de la propriété du sol entraînant changement de limite, l'acte ou la décision doit désigner l'immeuble tel qu'il existait avant la division et chacun des nouveaux immeubles résultant de cette division


https://www.legifrance.gouv.fr/affichTexteArticle.do?idArtic...



=> "parties communes de l’assiette de la propriété" would be communal parts on ground level (access road, parking, sports grounds ...??) with nothing above so they would be shown as separate part of "l’assiette de la propriété"

Par suite le VENDEUR déclare qu’à chacun des lots ci-dessus ne sont pas affectées de parties communes de l’assiette de la propriété

buying any one of these "lots" won't give you any right (nor obligations) regarding communal parts
showing on the ground map (if there are any) and because they are not included there are no changes of limits at ground level.

the residential part and the commercial part must be one on top of the other (ground floor turned into shops, for example) but because there are no changes in limits on ground level, this Art. 7 do not apply.
Peer comments on this reference comment:
agree SafeTex : Yes, this reference put me onto the idea of "floorspace" and then after Daryo's pertinent remark, maybe "surface area". I think he is right about "assiette" with this reference
1 day 3 hrs
Merci!
neutral Adrian MM. : The reference itself is a clear mix-up with 'l'assise de la copropriété' and it shouldn't take an 'Englishman' to hit on the clanger https://www.proz.com/kudoz/french-to-german/law-contracts/45...
1 day 14 hrs
I find the reference crystal clear // I'm the first one not to take anything for granted, but I can't see how anyone could argue with what "un cours de droit" has to say about a legal concept.
agree B D Finch
1 day 23 hrs
Thanks!
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