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Ruqayya
Shayma

Glossary entry

English term or phrase:

Safiya

Arabic translation:

صَفِيَّة

Added to glossary by bochkor
Nov 8, 2017 15:21
6 yrs ago
1 viewer *
English term

Safiya

Non-PRO English to Arabic Art/Literary Linguistics
I need this Arabic female first name written with FULL/ALL diacritics and its closest transliteration/pronunciation.

I have this صفية so far, but it lacks the diacritics.

Explanations in English, please, except for Arabic script examples!

Thanks.
Proposed translations (Arabic)
5 صَفِيَّة

Proposed translations

3 mins
Selected

صَفِيَّة

صَفِيَّة
/ṣafīyah/

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Note added at 1 hr (2017-11-08 16:56:17 GMT)
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It is a LONG I because the preceding letter has a KASRA.

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Note added at 2 days1 hr (2017-11-10 17:11:16 GMT)
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The doubled YA is actually two YAs, the first one has a SUKUN and the second one has a FATHA, together they form the doubled YA.
The KASRA of the letter FAʼ (short i) + the first Ya with SUKUN = long i
That's why I think the name should be transliterated as /ṣafīyah/.

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Note added at 4 days (2017-11-13 11:52:06 GMT)
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It is not a matter of right and wrong, but of a transliteration that enables the non-Arabic reader to simulate the original Arabic pronunciation as much as possible.

Please watch this video (starting from 2:00) that explains what I mean be the first Ya with SUKUN https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=OATgiwMk7co&t=147s

See also how the following words are transliterated on page No. 8 in LOC's Arabic romanization table: https://www.loc.gov/catdir/cpso/romanization/arabic.pdf

al-Miṣrīyah - المِصْرِيَّة
al-abjadīyah - الأبْجَدِيَّة

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Note added at 5 days (2017-11-14 10:25:41 GMT)
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Here is the standard Arabic pronunciation: https://clyp.it/ajtbwxdd

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Note added at 7 days (2017-11-15 17:27:02 GMT)
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I pronounce it a little faster here https://clyp.it/gt33pknr. Could you tell me whether it sounds like two YY or not?

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Note added at 9 days (2017-11-17 16:08:47 GMT)
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Well, if you see that YY would make you much closer to the above pronunciation, then I won't mind adding that Y. However, I would still reluctant to describe the other transliteration as wrong.

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Note added at 11 days (2017-11-19 16:23:16 GMT)
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As for me, I hear a LONG I, which I believe results from the KASRA of the FAʼ together with the first YA with SUKUN, plus one Y.

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Note added at 11 days (2017-11-19 16:26:10 GMT)
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I don't think there is a mismatch between writing and pronunciation because the Two YAs (which appear in writing as one YA with SHADDA) are not the same, as mentioned above; the first has a SUKUN and the other has a FATHA.

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Note added at 11 days (2017-11-19 16:27:48 GMT)
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The first YA together with the KASRA of the preceding letter appear in pronunciation as a LONG I.

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Note added at 11 days (2017-11-19 16:38:23 GMT)
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I would differentiate between them as follows:
ṣafiyyah صَفِيَيَة [Two YAs, both with FATHA]
ṣafīyah صَفِيَّة [Two YAs, the first with SUKUN and the second with FATHA]

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Note added at 11 days (2017-11-19 16:41:02 GMT)
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Of course the SUKUN of the first YA does NOT appear in writing. Please check the video of the SHADDA above.

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Note added at 11 days (2017-11-19 16:43:32 GMT)
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I have already wrote it above when you asked about how to differentiate between the two.

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Note added at 11 days (2017-11-19 17:44:52 GMT) Post-grading
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To cut a long story short, there are two YAs in صَفِيَّة, the first has a SUKUN and the second has a FATHA, together they appear in writing as ـيَّـ. That is unquestionable for me.

You argue that the YA with a SUKUN must be transliterated to 'y'. I have no objection to transliterating the YA with a SUKUN to 'y'.
HOWEVER, I think that the KASRA of the preceding letter together with the first YA make a LONG I. That is why I prefer, when it comes to transliteration, to transliterate both of them into 'ī' because I do NOT think that it is necessary to have a one-to-one relationship between the letters of an Arabic word and the transliteration of that word. If more than one letter could be transliterated to one character, I would not hesitate a second to do so as long as the transliteration enables the non-Arabic reader to simulate the original Arabic pronunciation as much as possible. At the end of the day, transliteration is intended to make him/her produce the closest pronunciation, not the Arabic spelling.
Note from asker:
Sorry, but I don't see a LONG I, but I see a SHADDAH, so the YA functions here as a Y (not as an I) and it is doubled, so it should be YY then, right? SAFIYYAH, right?
Yes, but I thought, that KASRA+YA=LONG I doesn't count, when the YA is doubled by a SHADDAH. However, you didn't write YY despite a SHADDAH being there, why?
/ṣafīyah/ or /ṣafīyyah/?<br> Because of the SHADDAH.
Yes, the preceding letter has a KASRA, but the YA is doubled because of the SHADDAH on top of it. So if there was no SHADDAH, then I would agree, that it's a LONG I and just a single Y. But because the SHADDAH is there and won't go away, doesn't it command us to say YY? Now if it does, then in any language it's hard to pronounce a LONG I followed by a DOUBLE CONSONANT.<br><br> Therefore I rather think, that because of the SHADDAH the YA functions as a CONSONANT. But if there was no SHADDAH, then the YA would function as a VOWEL instead, in which case it CAN make the KASRA long, a LONG I. But I don't think, that a YA can function as BOTH a consonant, AND a vowel AT THE SAME TIME. I think, it's either-or. But what is YOUR take on this point, I made?
And IMHO you can't say, that it's the KASRA, which takes precedence (hence the LONG I), either, because then what is the NEED for that SHADDAH? So should the SHADDAH be taken off then?
1. I don't see a SUKUN anywhere, but it's not even necessary. 2. The first YA is the first Y. The SHADDAH is the second Y. So together it's YY. 3. Once the SHADDAH doubled the actually written YA, that YA is already used up, so it cannot function at the same time also as a prolonging letter to the preceding KASRA. It is used up without a doubt. 4. There seems to be a confusion/uncertainty in other transliterations, too, such as for the word "al-ʻarabīyah" or "al-ʻarabiyyah", precisely because people don't realize, that he SHADDAH already used up that YA. Namely, you cannot double something and then take away the SOURCE of the copy (the first Y) and claim, that it's actually not a Y, but the prolongation of the I (KASRA). In other words, once the SHADDAH used the first and only Y as the SOURCE for its doubling, by this very action that SOURCE Y became associated with the SHADDAH = now it BELONGS to the SHADDAH and not to some previous letter/diacritic. And yes, that doubling MADE IT belong to the SHADDAH. The SHADDAH reserved this YA for itself, so now the SHADDAH owns this YA, because no letter can be associated with BOTH the preceding, AND the following letter at the same time.
<b>al-ʻarabiyyah</b><br> https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Arabic<br> I think, THIS is the correct one!
<b>al-ʻarabīyah</b><br> https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Arabic_alphabet<br> I this is the WRONG one.
I meant: "I think". I wrote it, but this keyboard or Windows just erased it and now it can't be corrected on ProZ anymore.
Well, I think, it IS always about right or wrong. Also in case of transliteration, because if you transliterate incorrectly, then the non-Arabic leader will be misled and pronounce it wrong. So when you write 2 YAs in Arabic script with a SHADDA, but then write only 1 YA in the transliteration, then the non-Arabic reader has been confused, because he sees the SHADDA there, expects a YY, then gets only 1 YA.
Now I know, that you're trying to explain the absence of the first Y in transliteration by saying, that its role is to prolong the preceding I vowel. The problem with that is, as I mentioned before, that this is not the only way, you can read it, because you can also claim, that the first YA is NOT there to prolong the I, but to double the consonant Y because of the SHADDA.
Now if you adhere to the rule of SHADDA and write it YY accordingly, then you lost the prolongation of the I. But if you use the first YA to prolong your I, then you need to answer the question, what the SHADDA is then there for? Because by prolonging your I you've just stripped your SHADDA of its doubling function, yet you WRITE the SHADDA, anyway???
So if you can write both al-ʻarabiyyah, and al-ʻarabīyah as العَرَبِيَّة, then there's something wrong here. Please, note that I'm specifically talking now about taking these 2 transliterations as the source, as the start to transcribe them into Arabic script, one by one! So if in both cases you arrive at the same result, العَرَبِيَّة, then something doesn't add up, so one questions, what the rule really is. What is the role of the SHADDA then, if I go with the LONG I theory? This the question, which you haven't answered yet, nor did the video and the PDF.
Perhaps you mean, that the SHADDA only doubles the YA in its Arabic script form, but once you have 2 YAs in Arabic script, then - before transliterating them into Latin letters - you assign different roles to each YA:<br><br> 1. To the first YA you assign the role of prolongation of the previous vowel I.<br> 2. Then to the second YA you assign the role of keeping it as the consonant Y.<br><br> Then you take the results of both - very different - roles and transcribe them differently to Latin letters, based on those 2 different roles. So that's, how you end of with a LONG I followed by only 1 YA.<br><br> Well, this is the only way, I can explain your way of understanding it. However, I still claim, that if you wanted to transcribe al-ʻarabiyyah into Arabic script, you would also end up with العَرَبِيَّة just the same. So the 2 methods are equal. But then how do you know, which method to use? I guess, you can only know it by knowing, how the actual word is pronounced by the majority of Arabs, which I don't know.
[I meant "end up" instead of "end of" somewhere in the middle.]
So let's talk about SPEECH then? Without getting into dialects, that is assuming "standard Arabic", how do you ACTUALLY pronounce all these words? With a ĪY or IYY? So please, tell me specifically, whether you can hear the LONG I or not? And please, also tell me, whether you hear Y or YY? And keeping in mind, that I'm referring now to ALL these words: Safiyyah, Arabiyyah, abjadiyyah, etc. I'd like to see the INTENTION of HOW they should be pronounced.
[So let's talk about SPEECH then! - typo of the question mark]
Well, having listened to the pronunciation of Safiya at your link, it's absolutely clear now, that he says a LONG I and YY. The doubling of the Y is so clear, yet you only put one Y into your transliteration of Safia. So would you mind adding that Y?
And if this pronunciation can be used as a reference for other similar words, then also al-ʻarabīyah, al-abjadīyah and al-Miṣrīyah should have DOUBLE Y = YY. Now this may go against some official transliteration, but if officially they still don't put a YY, then that transliteration is simply wrong and I don't care, who created that transliteration system. Because once you hear a SINGLE Y, then that's(Y), what you MUST put down. And if you hear a DOUBLE Y, then that's (YY), what you MUST put down. And as your above link shows, yes, it can be heard very well and very distinctly, so anyone, who based on this standard Arabic recording puts only a SINGLE Y in his transliteration, is dead wrong. No offense, but I mean it: anyone. Doesn't matter, who it is. This recording is so clear, that there can't be any doubt.
The question now is only, how do you reflect the LONG I and DOUBLE Y in these Arabic words in Arabic script? Perhaps they should add ONE MORE YA to prolong the I, leaving the SECOND YA and its SHADDA in place, too. So that would come to ...KASRA-YA-YA-SHADDA... I know, you may find it strange, but exactly this sequence is the only PRECISE equivalent of that standard Arabic pronunciation of Safia at the link, you just gave me. So if you want to be PRECISE and I do, then this would be the only way to write it in Arabic script.
I hope, you agree with my last sentence above. However, even if my sequence is the MOST ACCURATE description of the sound at your link, now we might face opposition from all those, who have been writing these words with ONE YA LESS for centuries. Well, I know that, but many languages have inconsistencies, which have become so widely used and accepted, that today they might count as correct and official already, even though they have been INACCURATE from the start. Do you agree with me, that this is the case here, too?
I just put صَفِيَّة into Google Translate and listened to it. Well, when she was speaking slowly (because Google alternates slow & fast recordings), it was definitely YY, but when she spoke fast, it sounded more like one Y only to me, but I'm not exactly sure, what it was. So could this word be pronounced also with one Y only and still be counted as correct standard Arabic pronunciation? Because Google Translate's recordings are also correct standard Arabic, I think. What do you think, when you listen to صَفِيَّة in Google Translate?
Last, but not least: Could it be, that some people are just so much in the habit of prolonging that Y, without think about the consequences = namely that once they prolong/double it in speech, then they MUST/SHOULD double the Y in writing, too? But of course, in writing they just don't care to put that SECOND YA there, yet they continue with their habit of constantly saying YY.
I meant: "without thinking".
Yes, it still sounds like a LONG I + YY. Is that how it supposed to sound?
it's
Well, it's not about having you write something, which you don't agree with. That's why I need to know: Can you hear YY on all recordings (yours & Google Translate's) or are you hearing only one Y?
As for me, I'm clearly hearing YY on all recordings. BTW, which microphone were you using for these recordings? Because the sound quality was so excellent!
So the problem is, that the recordings should match the Arabic script & its Latin transliteration, but they don't. So what do you hear?<br><br> 1. Do you hear a LONG I? Yes or no? 2. Do you hear a SINGLE Y? Yes or no?
Well, I understand, that you're busy and it's weekend again, but I'd really like to come to some agreement with you, so we can close this case. But the discrepancy between pronunciation (sound files) and Arabic script/transliteration is a big problem for me and it affects other words ending in -iyyah, too.
So all 3 have to match: Arabic script, Latin transliteration and pronunciation sound files. In other words, if you only write Y in Arabic script & transliteration, then you ALSO MUST say Y in your pronunciation and not YY. But I hear unmistakably YY in all 4 sound files: 2 of yours and 2 by Google Translate.
So you should pronounce, what you wrote down. That's the bottom line.
But because there is a mismatch between writing and actual pronunciation, that's why I suggested, that this might be a case of some wrong/incorrect habits, which have become so accepted and engrained in people's minds, that they already COUNT AS right/correct, although originally they weren't. I has asked you, whether you agree with this assessment, but you declined, when you wrote:<br><br> "Well, if you see that YY would make you much closer to the above pronunciation, then I won't mind adding that Y. However, I would still reluctant to describe the other transliteration as wrong."<br><br> So what else can I do to resolve this mismatch?
Maybe this could help: Try to transcribe both of these transliterations back into Arabic script!<br><br> ṣafiyyah = ?<br> ṣafīyah = ?<br><br> Would you end up with exactly the same Arabic script (with ALL diacritics, of course) in both cases? I think, you would. And if you would, then HOW would you DIFFERENTIATE between the two? HOW would you know, how to really pronounce this word FOR SURE in your sounds? If I wanted to write <b>ṣafiyyah</b> precisely with ALL diacritics, how would I do that? Can you write this for me?
I don't see a SUKUN anywhere on the YA, because there is no room for it, because that room is being occupied by the SHADDA.
OK, you hear the LONG I, but what about my other question: Do you hear the YY, too?
Could you write <big><b>ṣafiyyah</b></big> for me in Arabic script?
SHORT I + YY
Well, thank you for this answer:<br> ṣafiyyah صَفِيَيَة [Two YAs, both with FATHA]<br> However, this would be pronounced as YAYA, exactly because you have 2 YAs and 2 FATHAs. 2 FATHAs make 2 As, not one. Hence: YAYA.<br> So shouldn't the FIRST FATHA on the FIRST YA be replaced by a SUKUN?
BTW, yes, I have watched that video about the SHADDA and now I have watched it again. The problem with that video is the same: The only time, when the SUKUN appears VISIBLY on his board, is when he breaks the 2 Bs down. But when he joins the 2 Bs with the SHADDA, the SUKUN is suddenly GONE, yet he claims nonetheless, that the SUKUN is there, only nobody can see it. But since double consonants are never broken down individually in real text, therefore it should be ADMITTED, that the SUKUN is just not there. And of course, it's not there, because the SHADDA took over that role: marking the absence of a vowel, so the SUKUN isn't even needed at all.<br><br> So because the role of the SHADDA is to DOUBLE a consonant, DOUBLING already means "an absence of a vowel" between the 2 consonants. That's, what doubling is!
So back to my question: If "ṣafiyyah صَفِيَيَة [Two YAs, both with FATHA]", then how would you write SAFIYAYAH in Arabic script? The same way?
OK, so you still didn't tell me, whether you're hearing a YY. Also, you actually wrote SAFIYAYAH, not SAFIYYAH. And if you replace the first FATHA with a SUKUN, then you might as well join them with a SHADDA, which then results in ṣafīyah & safiyyah both being written as صَفِيَّة in Arabic script.
So while I disagree on the points above, I need to close this question now, although there still are loose ends. Thank you for all your effort, anyway.
By the way, Google results on both:<br> safiyah = 519,000 results<br> safiyyah = 1,110,000 results<br><br> So the clearly heard & written YY problem won't go away.
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4 KudoZ points awarded for this answer. Comment: "Thank you very much."
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