| Pages in topic: < [1 2 3 4 5] | The Kudoz semi-gangs Thread poster: Doaa Alnajjar
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DLyons 
Ireland
Local time: 11:23
Spanish to English
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| Do 5's encourage entrenched positions? | Oct 23, 2013 |
I did a quick browse on these forums out of curiosity and noticed that there are far more 5's than I see in my working groups of Spanish and French. And these 5's are quite often for answers which are so different from each other that some must be "wrong". (Personally, I'd check my passport and a few household bills before I gave a 5 to answering "DLyons" to "What's your name?" - but that's maybe a cultural difference).
I wasn't going to reply here, but I saw a Math and Stats ques... See more I did a quick browse on these forums out of curiosity and noticed that there are far more 5's than I see in my working groups of Spanish and French. And these 5's are quite often for answers which are so different from each other that some must be "wrong". (Personally, I'd check my passport and a few household bills before I gave a 5 to answering "DLyons" to "What's your name?" - but that's maybe a cultural difference).
I wasn't going to reply here, but I saw a Math and Stats question with all 5's this a.m.
Readers will be familiar with Surat Al-Furqan [25:63]
وَعِبَادُ الرَّحْمَٰنِ الَّذِينَ يَمْشُونَ عَلَى الْأَرْضِ هَوْنًا وَإِذَا خَاطَبَهُمُ الْجَاهِلُونَ قَالُوا سَلَامًا
[Edited at 2013-10-23 12:26 GMT]
[Edited at 2013-10-23 16:57 GMT] ▲ Collapse
| | | | | Post removed: This post was hidden by a moderator or staff member because it was not in line with site rule | | Moderator's actions were in line with site rules | Oct 23, 2013 |
Sheila Wilson wrote: Doaa ALnajjar wrote:
Just try to approach a Kudoz they answered first and you will be attacked, even if your answer is the right one. They will do everything, disagree to decrease your points, give sarcastic little notes, ..you name it. Try to answer back to them and your moderator will raise a head and hide your reply: "personal rather than linguistic," so I do not even have the chance to reply back at their ruddiness? So they know how to play the game and they give the can-not-be-hidden answer? Really? Really? Is that really happening? The moderator should certainly be acting as impartially as possible. I couldn't find any examples of it in your own KudoZ history, but maybe you've been withdrawing those answers.
Thanks Sheila!
I looked into Doaa's allegations and I found the moderator's actions to be fully in line with KudoZ rules.
Regards,
Enrique
| | | | Liviu-Lee Roth
United States
Local time: 06:23
Romanian to English
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| A few comments from an outsider | Oct 23, 2013 |
Disclaimer
- I am not a paying Proz member
- I am not in your language pair and have no friends or relatives in your language pair
- For the last 6 years, since I got involved with Proz/Kudoz, my contribution is limited to the fora and discussions, no points involved.
I followed with interest your post and while you may be right about some groups whose members support each other, there are some other points I completely disagree with.
BD Finch is so right:
[quote]B D Finch wrote:
I do agree that if (as is quite likely), the abuse that you complain about really happens, then the way it is dealt with by the moderators leaves much to be desired. However, I think that approaching KudoZ as a contest for winning as many points as possible to claw your way to the top of the list is quite pernicious. There certainly is a game element to it, but the principle objective should be to help other translators by providing a resource. This is not just for the benefit of the Asker, but also for both those of us who answer, as we should derive benefit from the discussion and even from being shown to be wrong, if that results in learning.
I read your CV. It looks impressive; a little too impressive.
You want to reach the top of a very long list of translators in your language pair in order to get more jobs. From your CV, it seems that you have a tremendous workload ”. . . I monthly translate hundreds of audits, market reviews, ratings (Standard and Poors, Fitch, Moody's), banking reports, loan agreements, EBRD documentation, WB/IMF reports, financial analysis, B-2-B correspondence, insurance..etc. ” Why do you chase the extra Proz-posted jobs?
In conclusion, you might be right regarding certain flaws of the Kudoz forum but why don't you start contributing first, (not chasing points) and the rewards will come later.
This was my approach 6 years ago when I encountered something similar, but not at the level you described. Since then, I decided to contribute only through discussions and the fora and I believe that I have valid contributions, and that makes me feel good.
Good luck,
Lee Roth
[Edited at 2013-10-24 08:06 GMT]
[Edited at 2013-10-27 08:45 GMT]
[Edited at 2013-10-27 09:10 GMT]
[Edited at 2013-10-27 18:08 GMT]
[Edited at 2013-10-28 12:52 GMT]
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Germaine
Canada
Local time: 06:23
English to French
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| A sad situation indeed. | Oct 24, 2013 |
writeaway wrote:
Kudoz used to be great fun and a wonderful way to learn and just enjoy translation. All that is now gone.
I have to agree: Kudoz used to be fun and a good tool to learn and enjoy translation. I discovered in some questions, anwers and discussions really good and even great translators for whom I have the most respect. I had the opportunity to exchange divergent points of view in constructive discussions. Askers (and answerers!) could get reassured on their position or even change their mind facing sound arguments. Things have changed.
Nowadays, you sometimes need a good ego to risk asking a question (!), certainly need a pretty strong one to risk commenting on, or disagreeing to an answer, and even stronger ethics/self-control not to reply to some allegations in a certain tone. Rules that should be applied are not (let's not explain/reference any answer) and rules that should not even exist are taking place (let's be "neutral" for buying peace). In a site selling "PROZ" and professionnalism, the I'm-Right-Otherwise-You're-Not-Either practice is becoming really depressing if not painful, and you'll be regularly stunned by behaviors which are far from that you would expect from any "professional". Sad. Very sad, indeed.
| | | | | Reason for the sad situation | Oct 26, 2013 |
Germaine wrote:
I have to agree: Kudoz used to be fun and a good tool to learn and enjoy translation. I discovered in some questions, anwers and discussions really good and even great translators for whom I have the most respect. I had the opportunity to exchange divergent points of view in constructive discussions. Askers (and answerers!) could get reassured on their position or even change their mind facing sound arguments. Things have changed.
Nowadays, you sometimes need a good ego to risk asking a question (!), certainly need a pretty strong one to risk commenting on, or disagreeing to an answer, and even stronger ethics/self-control not to reply to some allegations in a certain tone. Rules that should be applied are not (let's not explain/reference any answer) and rules that should not even exist are taking place (let's be "neutral" for buying peace). In a site selling "PROZ" and professionnalism, the I'm-Right-Otherwise-You're-Not-Either practice is becoming really depressing if not painful, and you'll be regularly stunned by behaviors which are far from that you would expect from any "professional". Sad. Very sad, indeed.
Because there were more professionals than amateurs back then.
| | | | | Maybe I'm too innocent | Oct 26, 2013 |
I'm surprised by many of the comments in this thread. How many of you live in foreign countries? Don't tell me that as soon as you arrived in your new countries everyone immediately accepted you as their best friends!
It always difficult when someone new joins a community, whether it's a new school, you move home or decide to emigrate to a foreign country.
I registered here in July 2011 and became a paying member a few months later, in November 2011. Obviously at the b... See more I'm surprised by many of the comments in this thread. How many of you live in foreign countries? Don't tell me that as soon as you arrived in your new countries everyone immediately accepted you as their best friends!
It always difficult when someone new joins a community, whether it's a new school, you move home or decide to emigrate to a foreign country.
I registered here in July 2011 and became a paying member a few months later, in November 2011. Obviously at the beginning I was aware of people's interest in me, but it wasn't a new feeling: I went to three schools and I've lived in three different towns in Spain (I'm not including stays of less than a year) and each time I've arrived on the scene I've had to work hard to earn people's respect, but I accept it and I think it's helped me become the person I am today. No, don't get me wrong, I'm not special in any way, but at least it's taught me to be a respectful, understanding and sociable person.
KudoZ is a great place for learning and after a while you get to know whose answers you can trust. I don't agree with an answer unless I'm completely sure it's right and I think many other people do the same (in my language pairs at least).
As for 'gangs', that's not new. Even if a person gets on well with everyone, I think there's a natural tendency to form groups. I remember when I was eight, I formed part of a group of friends made up of six people. We always used to say that 3 + 3 = 6 (our group was made up of two small groups!).
Since I became a paying member of ProZ, I have worked (and got paid) for clients that contacted me and I've also communicated privately with other translators.
I live in a medium-sized town and I have absolutely no contact whatsoever with other British people, let alone translators. This is the only place where I can switch off for a few minutes when I need to clear my brain whilst I'm working.
When I need to switch off for more than a few minutes, I do my housework or cook lunch! ▲ Collapse
| | | | | Post removed: This post was hidden by a moderator or staff member for the following reason: Reply to a hidden post. |
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jyuan_us
United States
Local time: 06:23
Member (2005)
English to Chinese
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| You have a sound mental status. | Oct 26, 2013 |
lee roth wrote:
I decided to contribute only through discussions and I would like to think that I have valid contributions, and that makes me feel good.
Good luck,
Lee Roth
[Edited at 2013-10-24 08:06 GMT]
You have a sound mental status. I should learn from you in many aspects of my life.
[Edited at 2013-10-26 19:34 GMT]
| | | | | Post removed: This post was hidden by a moderator or staff member because it was not in line with site rule | | There is a gangster robot on the loose! | Oct 27, 2013 |
Please refer to this case, in order to understand what I'm talking about.
I just received an automatic message from Proz explaining the outcome:
The asker was given several opportunities to select the most helpful answer, however, he or she did not do so within the allotted period of time. Therefore, the following answer most agreed-upon by peers (and having at least two peer agreements) was selected:
(1) sala de teste / da prova [Points: 4]
PLEASE REFRAIN FROM MAKING IT PERSONAL: I'm using the respondents' names only for the sake of briefness. I'm not considering who is getting those 4 points nor why. Furthermore, I admit that my own answer (posted on one of my very rare incursons - about 4-5 per year - to the Kudoz section) is out of line, since it went beyond the question's scope.
My entire issue here is about a computer having been programmed and empowered to make final decisions on terminology (Kudoz) based on the assumption that (3 + 3) > (5 + 1).
The reason why I am writing this is that I was one of the three runners-up who received the notification quoted above. Supposedly nobody else would realize what the statement "Selected automatically based on peer agreement." on that page actually entails.
Taking them by the order they came in (times shown there):
Claudio's suggestion was a bit too wordy, provided no references. It is correct, however it mostly explains the solution, and fails to provide a practical answer. Perhaps that's why his confidence was level was 4, and it received no endorsements.
Then Mariana came in with a confidence level of 3. Most likely she realized her answer was guessing facts not in evidence: "sala" means "room", and the context provided by the asker fails to state so. It could be a lab, a workshop, an auditorium, varied places. Yet three other Prozians found it to be the best option from the two available then. So she got 3 + 3 =6.
Jose (yes, me) gave an answer grounded on 60,000 hits on Google. Though such count is meaningless, checking the first 10 of them is enough to convince anyone that this is indeed the most common expression used for this purpose nowadays in Brazil. That's why my confidence level was 5. One Prozian chose it as the best one, so I got 5 + 1 = 6.
However the original asker is from Portugal, where the most common expression for this meaning may be quite different. I wouldn't know, and I still don't, as the asker didn't choose one herself.
Finally Marlene joined in, with high (5) confidence, and one reference link, incidentally from a very traditional area in Brazil. No prejudice, I enjoyed visiting that area very often in the early 1980s because of my job then, and it is a place known to keep the good ol'times alive still today. The result is that her choice, though definitely correct, is a tad old-fashioned, so nobody else chose it as the best.
The entire issue here is that as the original asker remained silent, a computer was empowered to make a decision based on flawed arithmetics!
Bottom line is that we don't know if in Portugal they use the same expression for it as we do in Brazil, and anyone doing a Term search might be deprived from getting a suggestion conclusively drawn by human peers right away.
In other words, this procedure is next akin to machine translation!
| | | | Rachel Fell
United Kingdom
Local time: 11:23
French to English
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José Henrique Lamensdorf wrote:
...The entire issue here is that as the original asker remained silent, a computer was empowered to make a decision based on flawed arithmetics!
Bottom line is that we don't know if in Portugal they use the same expression for it as we do in Brazil, and anyone doing a Term search might be deprived from getting a suggestion conclusively drawn by human peers right away.
In other words, this procedure is next akin to machine translation!
Sad state of affairs, and, though I haven't read all through the thread, good points by writeaway and Fiona Peterson on an earlier page.
A lot of comments seem to have been made that were not allowed, I notice.
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jyuan_us
United States
Local time: 06:23
Member (2005)
English to Chinese
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| I think it is worse than machine translation | Oct 27, 2013 |
José Henrique Lamensdorf wrote:
In other words, this procedure is next akin to machine translation!
Machines does accidentally give correct answers but often an answer that gets most "agrees" is very close to nonsense.
[Edited at 2013-10-27 21:28 GMT]
| | | | Fida Malki (X)
Local time: 13:23
Arabic to English
| Couldn't agree more! | Oct 27, 2013 |
jyuan_us wrote: José Henrique Lamensdorf wrote:
In other words, this procedure is next akin to machine translation!
Machines does accidentally give correct answers but often an answer that gets most "agrees" is very close to nonsense. [Edited at 2013-10-27 21:28 GMT]
That is one of many issues that Proz must look into!! I shake my head at some approved guesses!
| | | | Kay Denney
France
Local time: 12:23
French to English
| computer logic | Oct 28, 2013 |
jyuan_us wrote: José Henrique Lamensdorf wrote:
In other words, this procedure is next akin to machine translation!
Machines does accidentally give correct answers but often an answer that gets most "agrees" is very close to nonsense. [Edited at 2013-10-27 21:28 GMT]
Yup. I remember being told that a computer would choose a watch that had stopped completely over a watch that lost a minute a day, in that the stopped watch was right at least twice a day and the watch that lost a minute a day would only be right once in a blue moon...
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