| Pages in topic: < [1 2 3] > | No more anonymous outsourcers, please !!!! Thread poster: Catherine GUILLIAUMET
|
|---|
Vito Smolej
Germany
Local time: 22:16
Member (2004)
English to Slovenian
+ ...
SITE LOCALIZER | "Who are you?" | Jul 13, 2008 |
This is the way any communication (https for instance) runs: if the other side does not provide enough details about itself, I have all the rights and reasons to ask "who are you". it's called "mutual authentication","identify friend or foe" etc.
No need to blame it on the communication channel. Same thing has been happening to me on Skype for instance ("Feeling lonely ... what about you...") and I would never go and appeal to the Caesar about it. Just imagine all the bitch... See more This is the way any communication (https for instance) runs: if the other side does not provide enough details about itself, I have all the rights and reasons to ask "who are you". it's called "mutual authentication","identify friend or foe" etc.
No need to blame it on the communication channel. Same thing has been happening to me on Skype for instance ("Feeling lonely ... what about you...") and I would never go and appeal to the Caesar about it. Just imagine all the bitching and moaning if the moderators would get the right and the duty to start sniffing through the postings.
So I give
++
for the "who are you" mode out of it.
[Edited at 2008-07-13 07:29] ▲ Collapse
| | | | USER0059 (X) 
Finland
Local time: 23:16
English to Finnish
+ ...
| Yes—and have ProZ.com ask the question on our behalf | Jul 13, 2008 |
Vito Smolej wrote:
This is the way any communication (https for instance) runs: if the other side does not provide enough details about itself, I have all the rights and reasons to ask "who are you".
I agree. I also think that ProZ.com, being a tool, should automate this question for us.
Especially since assignments on ProZ.com often are urgent, it does not make sense to allow knowingly a communications mode that requires superfluous choreography on the part of the translator.
[Edited at 2008-07-13 09:04]
| | | | | Catherine, was it really so anonymous? | Jul 13, 2008 |
Dear Catherine,
I have reason to think that the blank profile you are mentioning shows a nice link to the relative Blue Board record, where all details and contact data are clearly shown, not to mention a few interesting entries from fellow translators.
I admit that it would have been perhaps better to introduce one's own agency, but all data are a couple of clicks away.... not so anonymous, after all, provided that I interpreted provided data correctly.
Gi... See more Dear Catherine,
I have reason to think that the blank profile you are mentioning shows a nice link to the relative Blue Board record, where all details and contact data are clearly shown, not to mention a few interesting entries from fellow translators.
I admit that it would have been perhaps better to introduce one's own agency, but all data are a couple of clicks away.... not so anonymous, after all, provided that I interpreted provided data correctly.
Giuliana ▲ Collapse
| | | | | To Giuliana : | Jul 13, 2008 |
Giuliana Buscaglione wrote:
Dear Catherine,
I have reason to think that the blank profile you are mentioning shows a nice link to the relative Blue Board record, where all details and contact data are clearly shown, not to mention a few interesting entries from fellow translators.
I admit that it would have been perhaps better to introduce one's own agency, but all data are a couple of clicks away.... not so anonymous, after all, provided that I interpreted provided data correctly.
Giuliana
Are you accusing me of lying ???!!!! I blanked the mails to respect the Netiquette.
I have sent copies of the mails to Jared as a support ticket earlier this morning.
When I clicked on "BlueBoard" in the profile of the freelancer registered on ProZ, nothing happened.
What is (not so) surprising is that this morning, on TranslatorsCafé, the negative feedback has disappeared. Indeed, any "owner" of a profile on TC is allowed to suppress him/herself any negative feedback, even in the "Hall of Shame"; I shouldn't have told them, on last Thursday, that I found a reference to them as a bad payer on TC ! It's why I trust much more the ProZ BlueBoard. However, I have reintroduced a request of informations about this entity on TC.
As I have never worked with any Italian agency and don't know any of them, I can't guess to which one you are thinking.
Catherine
| | |
|
|
|
Ralf Lemster
Germany
Local time: 22:16
English to German
+ ...
| Prefer to retain control of my communications | Jul 13, 2008 |
Vito,
Thank you for your reasonable comments.
No need to blame it on the communication channel. Same thing has been happening to me on Skype for instance ("Feeling lonely ... what about you...") and I would never go and appeal to the Caesar about it. Just imagine all the bitching and moaning if the moderators would get the right and the duty to start sniffing through the postings.
Add to that the screams of protest if a prospective job was lost because the corresponding message was awaiting vetting for just an hour too long.
Personally, I would strongly object to any mechanism where ProZ.com was to exercise control over communications directed at my business. (Think about it for a moment: would you ask your ISP to double-check whether messages sent to your domain contain all required details?)
I can see the reason why one would like to introduce minimum disclosed profile details. (IIRC we've had similar discussions in the past, where ProZ.com's line was that there are legitimate reasons not to disclose one's identity - maybe Enrique can comment on that.) But even if showing name (and, if applicable, company name) was mandatory - do we really believe the details shown would always be true and accurate?
Best regards,
Ralf
| | | | | Of course not | Jul 13, 2008 |
Dear Catherine,
I don't quite understand your aggressive reaction, as I clearly said "if I interpret provided data correctly".
And I wasn't referring to your description, but to a profile ID which lead to a complete Blue Board record - and I repeated twice *if I interpret provided data correctly*.
Giuliana
| | | | USER0059 (X)
Finland
Local time: 23:16
English to Finnish
+ ...
| No added moderator workload, just a one-time code or config change | Jul 13, 2008 |
Ralf Lemster wrote: Just imagine all the bitching and moaning if the moderators would get the right and the duty to start sniffing through the postings. Add to that the screams of protest if a prospective job was lost because the corresponding message was awaiting vetting for just an hour too long.
Earlier in this thread, Jared mentioned that jobs already are vetted carefully. Contact information disclosure would therefore impose no additional workload. The information that moderators already validate would simply be shown automatically, rather than hidden.
Personally, I would strongly object to any mechanism where ProZ.com was to exercise control over communications directed at my business. (Think about it for a moment: would you ask your ISP to double-check whether messages sent to your domain contain all required details?)
That is an excellent analogy. Such checks are, in fact, quite normal. It should not be possible to introduce a message into an SMTP environment without providing, among other information, an originator address as required by RFC 2822.
Of course, an address can be falsified, but in order to protect from such junk mail, devices such as Sender Policy Framework, which validates the domain name part of the SMTP reverse-path address; DNS-based blocking lists, which reject messages that suspicious hosts offer; and content-based junk mail filters such as SpamAssassin, are becoming more and more common.
(Apologies for my to-and-fro editing.)
[E]ven if showing name (and, if applicable, company name) was mandatory - do we really believe the details shown would always be true and accurate?
Are they not already mandatory, and “carefully vetted by site job moderators and staff, to ensure the highest level of security”, as Jared wrote earlier?
[Edited at 2008-07-13 11:12]
| | | | Ralf Lemster
Germany
Local time: 22:16
English to German
+ ...
| Job postings vs. profile messages. | Jul 13, 2008 |
Thor,
I believe you're confusing job postings and e-mails sent via member/user profiles.
[E]ven if showing name (and, if applicable, company name) was mandatory - do we really believe the details shown would always be true and accurate? Are they not already mandatory, and “carefully vetted by site job moderators and staff, to ensure the highest level of security”, as Jared wrote earlier?
I was referring to the disclosure of details in profiles, as suggested by Catherine - Jared referred to jobs posted via ProZ.com.
Best regards,
Ralf
| | |
|
|
|
USER0059 (X)
Finland
Local time: 23:16
English to Finnish
+ ...
| I stand corrected—the profile can be phony? | Jul 13, 2008 |
Ralf Lemster wrote: I believe you're confusing job postings and e-mails sent via member/user profiles. [E]ven if showing name (and, if applicable, company name) was mandatory - do we really believe the details shown would always be true and accurate? Are they not already mandatory, and “carefully vetted by site job moderators and staff, to ensure the highest level of security”, as Jared wrote earlier? I was referring to the disclosure of details in profiles, as suggested by Catherine - Jared referred to jobs posted via ProZ.com.
Dear Ralf,
Thank you for the clarification.
I take it, then, that the “careful vetting” of a job posting allows for the poster’s profile not to be “true and accurate”.
With best regards,
Thor
| | | | | To Giuliana (bis) | Jul 13, 2008 |
Giuliana Buscaglione wrote:
Dear Catherine,
I don't quite understand your aggressive reaction, as I clearly said "if I interpret provided data correctly".
And I wasn't referring to your description, but to a profile ID which lead to a complete Blue Board record - and I repeated twice *if I interpret provided data correctly*.
Giuliana
Sorry, but the problem is that we both are using a "third" language, and that *your* message, once translated by a French mind, sounded very aggressive and accusative.
Happy to see that you didn't mean that.
Catherine
| | | | | Humour says so much more ! | Jul 13, 2008 |
Thor Kottelin wrote: Ralf Lemster wrote: I believe you're confusing job postings and e-mails sent via member/user profiles. [E]ven if showing name (and, if applicable, company name) was mandatory - do we really believe the details shown would always be true and accurate? Are they not already mandatory, and “carefully vetted by site job moderators and staff, to ensure the highest level of security”, as Jared wrote earlier? I was referring to the disclosure of details in profiles, as suggested by Catherine - Jared referred to jobs posted via ProZ.com. Dear Ralf, Thank you for the clarification. I take it, then, that the “careful vetting” of a job posting allows for the poster’s profile not to be “true and accurate”. With best regards, Thor
Dear Thor,
I love your humour. It says so much more than any long sober-minded paragraph!
Catherine
| | | | gianfranco
Brazil
Local time: 17:16
Member (2001)
English to Italian
+ ...
| Job postings vs. profiles (II) | Jul 13, 2008 |
Thor Kottelin wrote:
I take it, then, that the “careful vetting” of a job posting allows for the poster’s profile not to be “true and accurate”.
Dear Thor,
I'm afraid, but you are still confusing job postings with profiles.
A profile can be almost empty, contain only a nickname and not much else, and still be acceptable because not everybody likes to appear with all personal details in Internet sites. It is a matter of choice. Some prefer to appear and find it advantageous, and some don't.
We cannot assume that they are all fraudsters, and indeed they are not all dishonest.
The Jobs postings, on the other hand, are carefully scrutinized, and if the details provided (regardless of the empty profile) are not true, the jobs are not allowed.
This task is performed by a dedicated team of moderators (I am not one of them) and their aim is not to block 100% of the possible frauds, which is practically impossible, but to help reduce the problem, raise the standard of the jobs posted and generally benefit the site and the community.
Please note that these preliminary checks still require anyone interested in a particular job posting to perform its own checks, and decide if they want to start a business relationship with any particular outsourcer or not.
The "preliminary checks" on the jobs postings are not perfect, and not a guarantee that the outsourcer is reliable, that will pay or anything else. This is obviuos, but I prefer to spell it out, just because it seems to me that in this discussion there are some unrealistic expectation on what an Internet portal can do.
In this particular case, Catherine has received a personal e-mail, from an empty profile, but it could have been sent from an external visitor (anyone without a profile in ProZ.com) and this kind of contacts fall outside of these Job posting preliminary checks.
bye
Gianfranco
[Edited at 2008-07-13 14:03]
| | |
|
|
|
| For me : ProZ = security | Jul 13, 2008 |
gianfranco wrote: Thor Kottelin wrote:
I take it, then, that the “careful vetting” of a job posting allows for the poster’s profile not to be “true and accurate”. Dear Thor, ..... In this particular case, Catherine has received a personal e-mail, from an empty profile, but it could have been sent from an external visitor (anyone without a profile in ProZ.com) and this kind of contacts fall outside of these Job posting preliminary checks. bye Gianfranco [Edited at 2008-07-13 14:03]
Dear Gianfranco,
Please excuse me if I have cut a part of your interesting message, but I didn't want to soak our colleagues.
An external visitor would not have a ProZ profile !!!! From the very moment when it is printed in the body of the message "Author's Profile: XX....", it DOES MEAN that this entity has a ProZ profile. For me, paying for full membership to ProZ is the synonym of paying for security/safety (feel free to use your preferred term), whatever might be my own contribution to ProZ reputation.
By safety/security, I mean mandatory verification of the identity of the poster (as was done for me : I've been a verified member for years and I belong to ProZ since its creation in 1999. It's why my profile is the number 313!).
I believe I am not too much demanding : just do not allow people to subscribe without publishing at least their postal address and/or their URL.
This will enhance ProZ reliability.
Thank you
Catherine
| | | | USER0059 (X)
Finland
Local time: 23:16
English to Finnish
+ ...
| Profile or not, hiding one's contact information is asocial and non-businesslike | Jul 13, 2008 |
gianfranco wrote: Thor Kottelin wrote:
I take it, then, that the “careful vetting” of a job posting allows for the poster’s profile not to be “true and accurate”. I'm afraid, but you are still confusing job postings with profiles. A profile can be almost empty, contain only a nickname and not much else, and still be acceptable because not everybody likes to appear with all personal details in Internet sites.
Dear Gianfranco,
Thank you for the explanation.
I understand the difference, but it is still my opinion that a reasonably complete profile should be a prerequisite for posting jobs. This would clear the confusion and suspicions that inconsistent or missing contact information currently causes.
It would not preclude the poster from adding reasonable per-project information, e.g. “Please reply to [email protected] rather than to our general email address”.
The Jobs postings, on the other hand, are carefully scrutinized, and if the details provided (regardless of the empty profile) are not true, the jobs are not allowed.
Even if a complete profile would not be required, the recipients should still have access to the poster's full contact information. This would help build confidence, and would reduce the amount of sleuthing necessary on the part of providers. Due diligence is obviously still called for, but this does not mean that normal contact details, in violation of the most basic business etiquette, should be hidden away.
Sure, providers can just delete deficient messages, or can spend precious working time in parrot mode, sending “who are you?” replies, but the end effect is still lose-lose-lose. Posters will lose otherwise interested providers up front, and must spend time on extraneous correspondence with others. The same effects are negative for the providers as well. In addition, when ProZ.com users lose, ProZ.com obviously also loses.
| | | | Ralf Lemster
Germany
Local time: 22:16
English to German
+ ...
| No direct link between profiles and posted jobs | Jul 13, 2008 |
Thor,
I understand the difference, but it is still my opinion that a reasonably complete profile should be a prerequisite for posting jobs. This would clear the confusion and suspicions that inconsistent or missing contact information currently causes.
Once again, providing full and accurate contact details is a prerequisite for any job posted.
The information posted in any profile used to post a job is not accessible to Jobs moderators - in fact, it's unnecessary as we check the details posted in the job.
Requiring job posters to have a ProZ.com profile would obviously be an option - but you should be aware that some of the largest businesses around (Google, Bloomberg, major financial institutions) have posted jobs without a profile. On the other hand, some of the worst fraudsters we have seen in over five years of moderating jobs had full profiles, and provided complete information.
Even if a complete profile would not be required, the recipients should still have access to the poster's full contact information.
Check the Blue Board.
Best regards,
Ralf
| | | | | Pages in topic: < [1 2 3] > | To report site rules violations or get help, contact a site moderator: You can also contact site staff by submitting a support request » No more anonymous outsourcers, please !!!! | Wordfast Pro | Translation Memory Software for Any Platform
Exclusive discount for ProZ.com users!
Save over 13% when purchasing Wordfast Pro through ProZ.com. Wordfast is the world's #1 provider of platform-independent Translation Memory software. Consistently ranked the most user-friendly and highest value
Buy now! » |
| | Anycount & Translation Office 3000 | Translation Office 3000
Translation Office 3000 is an advanced accounting tool for freelance translators and small agencies. TO3000 easily and seamlessly integrates with the business life of professional freelance translators.
More info » |
|
| | | | X Sign in to your ProZ.com account... | | | | | |
Login to reply/comment 
