| Pages in topic: < [1 2 3 4 5 6] > | Replace "native language" with "most competent language combination" Thread poster: Samuel Murray
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564354352 (X) 
Denmark
Local time: 10:37
Danish to English
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I can say straight away that I would vote against this for completely selfish reasons, as this is MY situation:
I am a Danish native, lived in Denmark till I was 21, then moved to England and lived there for eight years, then back to Denmark to study and gain my BA in Danish/English/Spanish business communication, then on to gain an MA in Danish/Spanish translation/interpretation. Started learning English at the age of 9 (I think), so I have now spoken English for 40 years. I'm stil... See more I can say straight away that I would vote against this for completely selfish reasons, as this is MY situation:
I am a Danish native, lived in Denmark till I was 21, then moved to England and lived there for eight years, then back to Denmark to study and gain my BA in Danish/English/Spanish business communication, then on to gain an MA in Danish/Spanish translation/interpretation. Started learning English at the age of 9 (I think), so I have now spoken English for 40 years. I'm still not a native English speaker or translator. However, my strongest translation combination is from Danish into English, simply because that is the EASIEST for me. I KNOW Danish inside-out, so I understand every tiny little detail of a Danish text, and therefore I can translate it well into English, even if a native English speaker might be able to write a slightly more polished text. My translation will be correct and understandable, and in many cases, it will be excellent. NOW - of course I also translate from English into Danish, but this is more cumbersome because of the great variety of the English language, which has many more words than Danish.
- If I understand your suggestion right, I would now have to declare English-Danish as my strongest translation pair, but not have the opportunity to declare that Danish is my native tongue, whereby I would be excluded from bidding on jobs that require translation into Danish, for which I am highly qualified... - it just takes me a bit longer. 
It doesn't really make sense... ▲ Collapse
| | | | Oliver Walter
United Kingdom
Local time: 09:37
German to English
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| Engineers (scientists) | Jun 23, 2012 |
Annamaria Amik wrote:
Why don't engineers claim that technical translations should be done by engineers?
I do. Otherwise you'll have translations like one I remember from over 30 years ago: a non-scientist, non-engineer translator translated (German to English) "chemische Verbindungen" as "chemical connections" - which is nonsense; the correct term here is "chemical compounds".
(There are contexts in which "Verbindungen" are "connections" but definitely not here. That's why the following joke is a good one: How many translators does it take to change a light bulb? It depends on the context.)
Oliver
| | | | Oliver Walter
United Kingdom
Local time: 09:37
German to English
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| Passing muster as a professional translator | Jun 23, 2012 |
Lisa Simpson, MCIL wrote: Annamaria Amik wrote:
There are many people we meet daily on the street who can't speak their single language correctly, who can't spell correctly and have a very modest vocabulary etc., yet we must admit that language is their native language as they don't speak any other. It also (or mostly) has to do with education.
Sorry Annamaria, these are not people who are trying to pass muster as professional translators.
Well, perhaps not literally those who have a very modest vocabulary, but there are some native speakers of English (& presumably this is true for other languages also) who do not have an adequate knowledge of spelling, grammar and idiom, but are active as translators - judging by my memory of what I have seen in some of the Proz forum postings.
(Lisa, you are not one of them and obviously I'm not going to name any of them here.)
Oliver
| | | | Phil Hand
China
Local time: 16:37
Chinese to English
| Facts of the site | Jun 24, 2012 |
Annamaria Amik wrote:
Besides, why don't lawyers get upset about legal translations being done by people without a degree in law? Why don't engineers claim that technical translations should be done by engineers? Or physicians that medical translations should be done by medical professionals?
They often do!
The native language option is one among many which outsourcers/clients can select. They can also restrict their jobs to those who report experience/qualifications in a particular field. I get excluded from lots of jobs this way. If you think there is widespread dishonesty about these fields of experience, and it's a problem for other site members, then I absolutely agree that better controls at Proz would be warranted.
No-one is trying to claim that native is the only criterion relevant when selecting a translator. But it is relevant. And your arguments about the value of L1 to L2 translation are weakened if you lie about your L1.
Again (bashing my head against a brick wall): the native speaker criterion is not new. Lisa didn't make it up on Friday. It's an existing site feature that translators report their native language. The big thread was sparked by the fact that there is widespread dishonesty in the use of this feature. That's not good for anyone.
So, we could do away with it; but I think that would be unhelpful to outsourcers, who often use native language as a criterion for selection. They should still be offered that option, because it really is useful.
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Paul Stevens
Local time: 09:37
Member (2003)
Spanish to English
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| I do not agree with Samuel's proposal | Jun 24, 2012 |
for exactly the same reasons as expressed by inkweaver:
inkweaver wrote:
Why should I want to declare one "most competent language combination"? I believe that my translation skills are the same, no matter whether I translate from English, French or Italian into German (which happens to be my native language).
If I believed that my skills from one of these languages was inferior to the others, I would not offer that language. However, if I had to choose one most competent combination, outsourcers might conclude that my skills translating out of the other two languages might not be as good which is something I certainly would not want to happen.
For me, it is more important to retain the concept of "native language" on this site than be asked to state my most competent language combination and, not only, as Ty pointed out on the other thread, do Both the ATA and the ITI endorse the "native only" approach and the existence of a native language but I believe that many outsourcers do place value on the "native" criterion when selecting a propsoective candidate for a translation/interpreting assignment.
| | | | XXXphxxx (X)
United Kingdom
Local time: 09:37
Portuguese to English
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| Odd way round | Jun 24, 2012 |
Gitte Hovedskov Hansen wrote:
However, my strongest translation combination is from Danish into English, simply because that is the EASIEST for me. I KNOW Danish inside-out, so I understand every tiny little detail of a Danish text, and therefore I can translate it well into English, even if a native English speaker might be able to write a slightly more polished text. My translation will be correct and understandable, and in many cases, it will be excellent. NOW - of course I also translate from English into Danish, but this is more cumbersome because of the great variety of the English language, which has many more words than Danish.
I'm curious that you choose your combination based on ease rather than accuracy, why not use a dictionary to understand "the great variety of the English language"? An NGO once begged me to translate several thousand words of a report from English into Spanish. Of course I warned them of all the implications and indeed it was faster than translating the other way round, but I can assure you that the result was nothing more than rendering a message as accurately as possible and probably utterly devoid of fluency or flair. Native speakers would probably have winced at some natural non-native errors (even though my spoken Spanish has been mistaken for being native on many occasions) and certainly wouldn't call that my "most competent language combination".
| | | | 564354352 (X)
Denmark
Local time: 10:37
Danish to English
+ ...
Sorry Lisa, but you are putting words in my mouth. I would never dream of translating in any direction if I did not feel competent in doing so. Competence is a given or I wouldn't be a translator at all.
For the same reason, I never translate into Spanish, which is actually the language I studied to MA level. I simply do not have sufficient insight into Spanish culture, let alone current language use.
Translating from Danish to English is easier for me because I instinc... See more Sorry Lisa, but you are putting words in my mouth. I would never dream of translating in any direction if I did not feel competent in doing so. Competence is a given or I wouldn't be a translator at all.
For the same reason, I never translate into Spanish, which is actually the language I studied to MA level. I simply do not have sufficient insight into Spanish culture, let alone current language use.
Translating from Danish to English is easier for me because I instinctively understand Danish words and sentence structures completely, i.e. all the little subtleties that you will find in any language. Understanding the subtleties of English is an ongoing progress, and I learn something new almost every day, and I love that and strive to improve my written English, including my translations, continually.
However, in English you have many more words than we do in Danish, hence, at times, it is not just a question of looking up words that I don't know, it is a question of looking up words, researching them in context and then deciding how best to render a precise meaning into Danish, which may involve a completely different sentence structure, adding comments etc., at times even inventing new compound words. And yes, I know that the same can be said for a lot of translation, as otherwise we could all just do word-by-word translations and call ourselves Google Translate.
I actually believe quite strongly that the number of non-Danes capable of understanding Danish fully is very limited, and the same may be the case for a lot of other minority languages. Despite what some people seem to think, mother tongue translation is not necessarily the equivalent of 'best practice'. The fact that we are so inundated with English means that we may often have a far better grasp of English than native English speakers give us credit for, and yes, translating into English in a competent way can be 'easier'.
And hey, who doesn't want an easy and enjoyable life?
P.S. I am aware that this discussion is beyond the scope of this thread, but you did ask.  ▲ Collapse
| | | | XXXphxxx (X)
United Kingdom
Local time: 09:37
Portuguese to English
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| Not so beyond the scope of this thread… | Jun 24, 2012 |
…which is about one’s ‘most competent language combination’. I couldn’t have been more “inundated” with French than during the ten years I lived there or with Portuguese during the twenty-five years I lived in Brazil. That still doesn’t remotely mean I would have been more competent to translate into those two languages, neither of which is my native language .
Personally, I would have thought it shouldn't be... See more …which is about one’s ‘most competent language combination’. I couldn’t have been more “inundated” with French than during the ten years I lived there or with Portuguese during the twenty-five years I lived in Brazil. That still doesn’t remotely mean I would have been more competent to translate into those two languages, neither of which is my native language .
Personally, I would have thought it shouldn't be about what makes your life easier or more enjoyable, but what produces the most professional result.
[Edited at 2012-06-24 11:23 GMT]
[Edited at 2012-06-24 11:24 GMT] ▲ Collapse
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| It could be not the same with every native language | Jun 24, 2012 |
I am sure Gitte can translate perfectly well in to English, even though she was born in Denmark. Her translations can even be more accurate than somebody's who did not grow with this culture since there are a lot of nuances sometimes people know only from home. If there were any style issues, to a certain extent, outsourcers could have their editors, if they are really serious outsourcers, to give the text a final brush. It might be different for English only native speakers to really know what ... See more I am sure Gitte can translate perfectly well in to English, even though she was born in Denmark. Her translations can even be more accurate than somebody's who did not grow with this culture since there are a lot of nuances sometimes people know only from home. If there were any style issues, to a certain extent, outsourcers could have their editors, if they are really serious outsourcers, to give the text a final brush. It might be different for English only native speakers to really know what it is to keep loosing competence in somebody's L1 since English is so widely spread that they are not in danger of losing competence in English, no matter where they live. By some very limiting definitions of a native language, some people may be left without a native language. ▲ Collapse
| | | | 564354352 (X)
Denmark
Local time: 10:37
Danish to English
+ ...
| Wrong presumption, Lisa | Jun 24, 2012 |
You seem to be presuming that because you do not feel comfortable translating into your second, third or fourth languages, or competent to do so, this means that nor will anybody else.
Don't forget that language is not an exact science. In many cases, there are no exact 'rights' or 'wrongs' but a whole lot of scope for submittiing 'accurate' translations. Any assessment of what is 'accurate' will, to some degree, be subjective. I have no doubts whatsoever that of course, my clients ... See more You seem to be presuming that because you do not feel comfortable translating into your second, third or fourth languages, or competent to do so, this means that nor will anybody else.
Don't forget that language is not an exact science. In many cases, there are no exact 'rights' or 'wrongs' but a whole lot of scope for submittiing 'accurate' translations. Any assessment of what is 'accurate' will, to some degree, be subjective. I have no doubts whatsoever that of course, my clients want my translations to be accurate, localised and native-sounding, but I also know that they are very keen that exactly what they say is rendered 'accurately'. At times, it is more important to take a translation down a notch from the most eloquent English you could possibly imagine to ensure that the original meaning is not lost. This is where the native translator, as in the native-in-the-source-language translator will, at times, be able to do a better job than the native-in-the-target-language translator.
I can't remember who mentioned Shakespeare earlier, but the thing is that most translation into English does not require Shakespearian (is that even a word? ) quality, in fact, rendering a technical text into the style of Shakespeare would be ludicrous. ▲ Collapse
| | | | Ty Kendall
United Kingdom
Local time: 09:37
Hebrew to English
| You just made the case FOR native language identification | Jun 24, 2012 |
Gitte Hovedskov Hansen wrote:
This is where the native translator, as in the native-in-the-source-language translator will, at times, be able to do a better job than the native-in-the-target-language translator.
If this is what you believe, then the use of a native language criterion would seem to be indisposable. If native-in-the-source and native-in-the-target language translation both have their own niches (and markets) then outsourcers need to be able to identity translators by their native language, not by what language combination the translator self-assess themselves to be the best in.
| | | | XXXphxxx (X)
United Kingdom
Local time: 09:37
Portuguese to English
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| Nothing to do with feeling comfortable about it | Jun 24, 2012 |
Gitte Hovedskov Hansen wrote:
You seem to be presuming that because you do not feel comfortable translating into your second, third or fourth languages, or competent to do so, this means that nor will anybody else.
I just wouldn't do it for professional reasons in the same way that I would hope an orthopaedic surgeon wouldn't take it upon himself to perform plastic surgery. I wouldn't dream of translating in fields I was not specialised in nor would I presume to do a better job than a native speaker of my source languages.
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564354352 (X)
Denmark
Local time: 10:37
Danish to English
+ ...
| As I was saying... | Jun 24, 2012 |
Lisa, you just confirmed what I thought you were saying, thanks for that...
I am qualified to translate into English and I am good at it. Many other non-native English speakers may also be qualified and competent to do so.
I am also qualified to translate into Spanish (I am a state-authorised translator/interpreter, i.e. entitled to interpret in court cases, should I so choose), but I don't, because professionally I acknowledge that I am not good enough at that.
<... See more Lisa, you just confirmed what I thought you were saying, thanks for that...
I am qualified to translate into English and I am good at it. Many other non-native English speakers may also be qualified and competent to do so.
I am also qualified to translate into Spanish (I am a state-authorised translator/interpreter, i.e. entitled to interpret in court cases, should I so choose), but I don't, because professionally I acknowledge that I am not good enough at that.
Ty, this is a thread about replacing 'native language' with 'most competent language', which I am against for reasons stated earlier, as in my case, it would rule out the opportunity to state my native language, Danish, as well as my best/preferred language combination Danish to English.
I am not claiming native speaker proficiency in anything but Danish. But I am claiming a high level of English proficiency and the right to be acknowledged as a translator in my 'most competent language combination' AS WELL, if push comes to shove.
I see your point, I just don't agree with it. I think it is old-fashioned and one-track-minded, to be honest. There is more to translation than native speaker translation.
Get over it. ▲ Collapse
| | | | | Nothing to get over as long as clients know they are hiring a non-native | Jun 24, 2012 |
Gitte Hovedskov Hansen wrote: I see your point, I just don't agree with it. I think it is old-fashioned and one-track-minded, to be honest. There is more to translation than native speaker translation. Get over it.
If clients are happy to let non-natives take care of their translations, then that's their business. It's not "modern", it's just a sign of the times. People simply don't care anymore. Quality is becoming less and less of an issue.
It's not a matter of being qualified either. After all, even if one is licensed to kill, it doesn't mean that killing is ok.
Nothing to get over. Just something one has to resign oneself to. And that doesn't make it right professionally speaking or a good thing in the long run.
| | | | | Just one of many factors, and should not overshadow the others | Jun 24, 2012 |
Native language is just one of many factors that go to make up a translator. Other things being equal, it is probably an advantage to translate into one's native language, but it should not be allowed to overshadow other important factors.
Understanding the source is half of translation, and correct understanding of the source is, in my opinion, more important than translating into one's so-called native language. If the meaning is misunderstood, then the most elegant idiomatic tra... See more Native language is just one of many factors that go to make up a translator. Other things being equal, it is probably an advantage to translate into one's native language, but it should not be allowed to overshadow other important factors.
Understanding the source is half of translation, and correct understanding of the source is, in my opinion, more important than translating into one's so-called native language. If the meaning is misunderstood, then the most elegant idiomatic translation is doomed from the start.
Probably from the earliest history of translation, more people have translated out of their native languages than into them.
In some languages, domains like medical Latin and legal language are almost as much acquired languages to the natives as to non-natives.
"Danish" medical Latin is sometimes more closely related to the amo-amas-amat Latin I learnt at school (in England) than the language normal Danes speak. It is more Latin than the English equivalent, so I can understand why Gitte finds it easier to translate that kind of "Danish" into English than the other way around.
Here, being a native speaker of Danish or English is only an advantage when you ALSO have a training in medical Latin as used in the Danish health services. Ordinary 'Danes in the street' cannot read their own medical records unless they are written so that the patient can understand them.
The native language principle is just that, and it must not become a superstition or a religious dogma, because as everybody knows, it is not in itself a guarantee of quality and professionalism.
People are passionate about their native languages because they do not simply study them; they live in them, laugh and weep in them, bring up their children in them... and some have a language of habitual use that is not their original native language. I do for one, and the boffins can say what they like. In my heart I KNOW Danish is my second native language, and I speak and write it as well as many natives.
This combination of life and study is how people become really good at a language.
So perhaps the solution is to re-order the details on the profile, placing subject pairs first in order of preference and then subject specialisms. THEN the native language(s) can be declared.
But the importance of the native language must be assessed rationally and not be allowed to dominate at the expense of the other important factors. ▲ Collapse
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