| Pages in topic: < [1 2 3] > | Proofreader trying to make you look bad? Thread poster: Ines Burrell
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Rosa Maria Duenas Rios (X) 
Local time: 17:18
| Other meanings of Barrio Chino... | Mar 3, 2005 |
Sylvia Moreno Filbry wrote:
It must have been a somewhat amusing but at the same time pretty annoying translation to correct.
I hope you don't mind my commenting on one of the examples you gave: In my opinion, barrio chino, can be translated not only as Chinese quarter but also as Chinatown (U.S), that is: A quarter of any city or town outside China with a predominantly Chinese population. For instance, I would choose "Chinatown" to refer to the Chinese quarters in San Francisco and LA (although Chinese quarter is correct), but "Chinese quarter" (certainly not Chinatown) when referring to the Chinese community in Birmingham-UK. It would depend on the context and the readership.
Justs my modest point of view.
If I am not mistaken, the "Barrio Chino" in Barcelona is the Red Light District; it might happen that other Spanish cities use the same name for the same districts too, but I do not know for sure. Maybe the text Parrot was referring to was about this particular part of the city.
Anyone who has not heard about the Barrio Chino in Barcelona would not be mistaken to think exactly what you though. ANd I believe that the Parrot's point is exactly this. That it takes not only a good translator, but also someone who actually knows the subject matter, to make things easier for the proofreader.
My two cents...
| | | | Rosa Maria Duenas Rios (X)
Local time: 17:18
| Fear or lack of confidence... | Mar 3, 2005 |
Burrell wrote:
ever what made me post this topic was the sheer attacking nature of the remarks. [...]
But I still end up working on the heavy machinery. I just do not think it is a valid point for slaying somebody's else work.
Burrell[/quote]
I have had excellent proofreaders, from whom I have learned a lot, but have also faced lousy proofreaders. In my experience, the supeficial changes and the negative comments that lousy proofreaders make are related to the way they understand their duty to their client: "I am a proofreader; if they give me a text and I send it back with few corrections, they will think that either I am not doing my job, or the translator is so good that they do not need a proofreader anymore; in both cases, I am at risk of losing my job". So they never feel comfortable praising a translator, no matter how minimal the mistakes (no one is perfect), or how useless the changes they suggested. This reaction is a result of their fear to lose their jobs.
Thera are others who think that they are better translators than anyone else and thus, the way they translate something is the ONLY way to translate it. In general, it is very difficult to have a dialogue or interact with such persons and, in my opinion, their behaviour is due to a lack of confidence in themselves or their habilities, which they are trying to hide by posing as "the" expert.
Since there is not much the translator can do when confronted with this type of personalities, my suggestion would be to back your choices with proper documentation, and try not take the proofreader's comments too personally (I know, this is easier said than done!).
After all, you said it yourself, you are "one hundred percent sure that your translation was quite good". That, and the fact that your clients keep coming back to you is what really counts!
[Edited at 2005-03-03 13:22]
| | | | Parrot
Spain
Local time: 23:18
Spanish to English
+ ...
| Sorry if I wasn't clear | Mar 3, 2005 |
Sylvia Moreno Filbry wrote:
I hope you don't mind my commenting on one of the examples you gave: In my opinion, barrio chino, can be translated not only as Chinese quarter but also as Chinatown (U.S), that is: A quarter of any city or town outside China with a predominantly Chinese population. For instance, I would choose "Chinatown" to refer to the Chinese quarters in San Francisco and LA (although Chinese quarter is correct), but "Chinese quarter" (certainly not Chinatown) when referring to the Chinese community in Birmingham-UK. It would depend on the context and the readership.
Justs my modest point of view.
It referred, as Rosa María says, to the red-light district, in this case, of medieval Salamanca. A substantial Chinese population in this case being highly questionable, we have to understand the expression as a modern extrapolation. However, since there is no real Chinatown here in Spain (the Chinese are allowed to live and do live where they pretty much want to), the barrio chino invariably has this meaning on this side of the globe.
The same text explained the origin of the word "ramera", so I couldn't see how the misreading occurred. During Lent, a clerical figure jocosely referred to as "Padre Putas" (at a time when prostitution was legalized) ferried the women of ill-repute across the river to another location. A week after Easter, they were allowed to return in boats that were decked with branches, to differentiate their passage from normal riverine traffic. They also wore uneven, pointed skirts for the same purpose. The expression "Padre Putas" eventually disappeared, as it was considered a slight to the Church.
The problem here wasn't so much a question of native language as it was a lack of comprehension ("doctrinos" as "doctrines", for example), and a dearth of basic acculturation in source language. The same translation referred to the "pasos" used in processions as "floats", which was rather a contradiction in register (note that I haven't mentioned everything I came across). So pardon me if I can't help believing that a translator should at least have set foot in one of the countries where his source language is spoken, lest he ride roughshod over the culture he mediates.
For the rest, during the middle ages, China had a "Little Italy", composed of merchants like Marco Polo (if indeed...) but was not in itself a country of emigrants.
[Edited at 2005-03-03 14:29]
| | | | Kunik
Local time: 23:18
English to Latvian
+ ...
| Been there, done that | Mar 3, 2005 |
Burrell wrote:
I suppose it has happened to everybody at some stage. I have just seen a report done by a proofreader who edited my translation. It does not have a single mistake, however the proofreader made sure my work does not look too good (well, maybe I am too sensitive here). All the changes are done because of "extremely poor wording", "incredibly bad flow of translation" etc. Plus the fact, most of the changes were done to the terms I used, basing on the previous translations the client had approved (they were provided for reference).
Like most of our colleagues here I've met both excellent proofreaders and nasty/ignorant ones. Sometimes fighting back is very tiresome and time consuming- I have actually translated into English whole chapters of Latvian grammar books to prove that proofreader's "corrections" are absolutely wrong.
When I must proofread someone's else work (I tend to avoid it, but sometimes it is inevitable) I try to be as objective and understanding as possible, especially because I have an irrational belief that someone else would be as objective and understanding to me. But I have to admit that some mistakes I find extremely annoying (lieciet- liekat, nodroshinat- nodroshinaat- nodroshiniet issues in Latvian ); I used to receive documents full of repetitious (and nasty) mistakes, so finally I enquired the client if the translator had a chance to see the proofread documents, and unfortunately it turned out that the translator was too "confident" (should I say- arrogant?) to pay any attention to my suggestions.
Finally, I you feel you would need some encouragement or reassurance, and if the translation is from EN into LV, I would gladly take a second look at it, just let me know.
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Ines Burrell
United Kingdom
Local time: 22:18
Member (2004)
English to Latvian
+ ...
TOPIC STARTER | Thanks, Tinageta! | Mar 3, 2005 |
Thanks, Tinageta! I would love that but I am bound by a confidentiality agreement, technically I am not even supposed to discuss the subject with my husband (sick, is not it?).
But I already feel reassured, probably that is why I posted the thread.
Thanks!
Burrell
| | | | Lia Fail (X)
Spain
Local time: 23:18
Spanish to English
+ ...
gad wrote:
Alish, my first thought is that it was done on translation sofware - particularly when you mentioned the THE and OF THE type mistakes.
I've recently had a frustrating editing job myself, so I can empathize...
No, it's definitely not software, as it was too human for that, and certain errors were purely human, like incorrectly copied numbers and signs!
It was just over-literalness and carelessness:-)
| | | | Lia Fail (X)
Spain
Local time: 23:18
Spanish to English
+ ...
Conor McAuley wrote:
But there is absolutely no excuse for getting the basics wrong,.............
Rereading and correction is often a thankless task (often better to start completely afresh - less time-consuming and more rewarding) so perhaps this accounts for the corrector's frustration ........
I used to think rereading would be a nice sideline to translation .........
You need to bear in mind that some people still use extremely poor non-native translators (I don't know why, maybe to save money, or because they're in-house), which is ragingly annoying for pros like us..................
Sp>En rates seem to be rock-bottom, €0.06 per word for a top-class translator!!! (The cost of living in Spain is lower of course).
HTH.
HI Conor, I can't agree more with you on the above.
What annoyed me about all the THEs and OF THEs - the BASICS - was that the sheer volume used up hours of precious time that I could have dedicated to more important issues.....
When we consider translation error, what we have to do is assess the consequences. If a translator gets a single number wrong, this is pardonable from the perspective that it requires a few keystrokes to correct it AND IS THE EDITOR'S JOB, and although a number IS critical in the original (hence in the target), it is a very HUMAN error. And editors edit becuase translatords are human...
As for being a thankless task, too right. I submitted a text that I wasn't happy with, becuase there were so many stupidly unnecessary changes that I eventaully felt worn down by the monotonousness of the click-delete-insert-copy/write-paste to the point where I felt I was being distracted from more important things (tidying up a mess produces a somewhat improved mess, but neverthesless, still a mess).
Yes, a sideline. Editing has teh advantage of not having to do the dogsbody work of inputting text...first draft. However, I'm having a big rethink...there a certain dissonance after sumbitting what can only be considered a somewhat improved mess, as has invariably happened with the edits I've done - mak,ing the best of a bad job.
This person was native, and many of the translators I have edited were natives.....but they just seem to fail to go the extra mile! I either refuse to edit non-natives or only edit non-native field experts with a good command of EN and an excellent command of EN terminology, and on a collaborative basis (we exchange doubts and thrash out meaning between me, the linguist, and they, the field expert).
Finally, rock-bottom indeed and they get rock-bottom quality. I was offered a highly technical text at 0.44 cents by an agency this week. That's pretty much the going rate, bottom end of the market....Lower cost of living? Not sure about that, Spain and especially the cities are catching up FAST with Europe, although admittedly it's still possible to get (well) fed and watered beyond the confines of one's apartment without breaking the bank...
Two young wans I know, both qualified translators with some experience, are working for about 900-1000 eurso net/month in agencies..... one of them pays half that on her shared apartment, bills included.
[Edited at 2005-03-04 00:49]
| | | | Lia Fail (X)
Spain
Local time: 23:18
Spanish to English
+ ...
| I wonder why? | Mar 4, 2005 |
James Calder wrote:
The standard ... is usually dreadful. Why? Because self-styled "experts" in English think they can produce flawless, flowing prose when they patently cannot.
[Edited at 2005-03-03 11:37]
But why aren't there "self-styled "experts" in" other langauges to the same extentb as appears to happen in ES-EN?
I am only going by the 'objective' comment of this agency person, that good ES-EN translators are rare (and my own 'subjective' experiences would confirm this). But by implication, EN-ES, for example is OK (the agency is ES, she is an ES speaker who lived donkey's years in Ireland working for one of the world's top agencies). But my own experiences in editing would confirm that there are few good translators in this combination working for agencies. What's more, from posts in the past about the subject, in other language combinations comments seems to indicate that translations are of an acceptable standard, whereas I cannot remember having ever received one of acceptable standard in my own combination ....so is it the country/language combination?
I entered translation by the back door (via EN teaching and a casual encounter on the Camino de Santiago), and after a few years, found I liked it so much that I wanted to study it. With the hindsight of my studies, I now realise the importance of theoretical input. Which is precisely what seem to be lacking in the texts I edit. What also seems to be evident is a lack of concern for or interest in the reader. I am always very conscious of the reader, in other words in the divide between author and reader, for certain kinds of texts, I will come down very firmly on the reader's side. I also abhor 'translationese', maybe being over-sensitised to it from viewing so many atrociously translated websites (native or non-native)....
Is it becuase in Spain there is little appreciation of what 'knowledge' of a language means - as someone pointed out, one constantly meets people who think that a year in an EN country makes them comparable to - or equipped to correct - natives, even in writing (they fail to realise that even natives often don't make the grade when it comes to 'professional' writing)? After 15 years in Spain, and I would say my comprehension skills are close to 100%, I wouldn't dream of writing in Spanish for money (ie, as a translator, although obviously it's a 'working' language for me from a business perspective).
Is it because - as happens in language teaching - being native automatically classifies you as a competent translator to EN (or teacher)in the confused thinking of ES people?
Is it becuase agencies in Spain are less quality conscious that cost conscious? Which lowers the entry barrier to the profession... I have worked for/with DE translators and agencies, and their whole approach is CONSISTENTLY more professional (they want evidence of training), more personal (there is an attitude of the transaction being an exchange between equals, they don't ask for 5000 words in a day, they seem to appreciate what's involved in a translation, they seem more quality than cost focused...)
[Edited at 2005-03-04 01:41]
[Edited at 2005-03-04 13:49]
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But I still end up working on the heavy machinery.
Burrell[/quote]
I know exactly what you mean!
///Engineering\\\
I've got a nice big basic correspondance / light finance text for the next few days thank God!
| | | | Rosa Maria Duenas Rios (X)
Local time: 17:18
| More on the "Barrio chino" | Mar 4, 2005 |
Parrot wrote:
It referred, as Rosa María says, to the red-light district, in this case, of medieval Salamanca. A substantial Chinese population in this case being highly questionable, we have to understand the expression as a modern extrapolation. However, since there is no real Chinatown here in Spain (the Chinese are allowed to live and do live where they pretty much want to), the barrio chino invariably has this meaning on this side of the globe.
What I find intriguing is that the expression dates back to Medieval times, and that it has persisted. Also, why did they come up with such term? Were the whores chinese? Or the pimps? It would be really interesting to find out... but once again, I am drifting away from the thread's topic... sorry!
[Edited at 2005-03-04 13:38]
| | | | Parrot
Spain
Local time: 23:18
Spanish to English
+ ...
| I think it was extrapolated | Mar 4, 2005 |
I mean, a modern expression was used in a piece about medieval customs. Spain's trade with China began in the 16th century (let's leave the Romans out for now) and peaked in the 18th, with the Acapulco galleons. I doubt that in those days the expression existed, though the Opium Wars (which affected all of China's foreign contacts and gave the west a kind of stilted vision of Chinese decadence) may have influenced the Spanish view. In fact, "barrio chino" as used in Madrid doesn't necessarily ha... See more I mean, a modern expression was used in a piece about medieval customs. Spain's trade with China began in the 16th century (let's leave the Romans out for now) and peaked in the 18th, with the Acapulco galleons. I doubt that in those days the expression existed, though the Opium Wars (which affected all of China's foreign contacts and gave the west a kind of stilted vision of Chinese decadence) may have influenced the Spanish view. In fact, "barrio chino" as used in Madrid doesn't necessarily have to be a red-light district, just seedy enough. And coincidentially, prostitution thrives in such areas.
If you can find anything on the etimology, I'd appreciate it. I've been googling and nothing of the sort turns up.
For the rest, the concept of zoning by ethnicity seems to have been quite common in trading centres and ports. If I remember right, Boca in Buenos Aires was its one-time Little Italy. Binondo in Manila was the "barrio chino" in this sense because it was closest to the port, which was the Chinese population's main source of livelihood, and far enough from both the Spanish and "Indio" districts (the "parián" concept). It made the work of police, immigration and customs authorities easier.
Now I'm also sorry I'm off-topic. Maybe Rosa María could move this question to the Spanish forum?
[Edited at 2005-03-04 16:53] ▲ Collapse
| | | | Rosa Maria Duenas Rios (X)
Local time: 17:18
| Promised, last deviation from the topic! | Mar 4, 2005 |
Parrot wrote:
IIf you can find anything on the etimology, I'd appreciate it. I've been googling and nothing of the sort turns up.
For the rest, the concept of zoning by ethnicity seems to have been quite common in trading centres and ports. If I remember right, Boca in Buenos Aires was its one-time Little Italy. Binondo in Manila was the "barrio chino" in this sense because it was closest to the port, which was the Chinese population's main source of livelihood, and far enough from both the Spanish and "Indio" districts (the "parián" concept). It made the work of police, immigration and customs authorities easier.
Now I'm also sorry I'm off-topic. Maybe Rosa María could move this question to the Spanish forum?
[Edited at 2005-03-04 16:53]
I am not sure about opening another thread to discuss the origin of the term “Barrio chino” to designate red-light districts in some Spanish-speaking countries. However, the only referral to the origin of the expression that I have been able to find is in a story by Cuban author Manuel Pereira. The link is the following for whoever cares to read the complete article (quite interesting, but in Spanish):
http://www.cubaencuentro.com/desde/20040225/5674b21efd7b5b55a68b276301480710/1.html
A rough translation of the relevant paragraph follows:
“And then… why is this neighbourhood -whose name is Raval, and which is located between Las Ramblas and el Paralelo- called “Chinatown”? The expression “barrio chino” became popular, according to some, because someone adopted such name after viewing the movie titled “Chinatown”(not the one by Roman Polansky, but another before this one, filmed in San Francisco, and belonging to the “black movies” classification), and comparing the problematic and socially conflictive character of this neighbourhood with the one described in the movie.”
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| Proofreading to be avoided? | Mar 5, 2005 |
After all these comments and my own (only 3) bad experiences with it, I think I'll turn down proofreading jobs in the future. These were the three experiences:
1. About a year ago I translated a technical text from English into German for an Austrian agency (ATT translations). The proofreader corrected all expressions that seemed un-Austrian (sounds like "unorthodox" and that's what the corrections were to me) into Austrian dialect, after which the translation agency reduced my pay. I ... See more After all these comments and my own (only 3) bad experiences with it, I think I'll turn down proofreading jobs in the future. These were the three experiences:
1. About a year ago I translated a technical text from English into German for an Austrian agency (ATT translations). The proofreader corrected all expressions that seemed un-Austrian (sounds like "unorthodox" and that's what the corrections were to me) into Austrian dialect, after which the translation agency reduced my pay. I remember how my pride was hurt and I tried to explain how and why my work was correct. I should have left it and forget about them but one takes pride in ones work, doesn't one? )
2. A Canadian translation agency asked me to proofread the Dutch translation of a hotel brochure. A guest had scribbled catchier, smoother versions of many grammatically correct lines on the brochure and the hotel owner was upset. I returned the job unfinished, with the remark that all was well, except the style. Not such a bad experience, except that it cost me time and didn't get paid.
3. A Regensburg, Germany agency (Wortwelt) asked me to proofread a Dutch document on procedures in connection with a medical device a month ago. The translation was done by someone who had obviously not understood the procedures and/or the device. Since there are many foreign students in Regensburg, I suppose it was done by a Dutch student. I corrected the document, wrote my comments, got paid 15,- Euro for an hour of work and heard nothing from the agency since. And now I think what an idiot I was to help an obvious slave-trader agency harass one of its side-job translators.
Okay, maybe I won't turn down proofreading entirely in the future. I'll accept if 1. it pays well and 2. it is a document translated by a professional colleague, which means being given the chance to see the entire translation in advance and 3. I have the qualifications for it and 4. it suits me.
This may never happen. So I'll happily go on translating manuals.
By the way: sorry for being slightly off-topic. At least one of the aforementioned experiences was somewhat of a reply to the asker. ▲ Collapse
| | | | Sylvia Moren (X)
Local time: 23:18
English Old (ca.450-1100) to Spanish
[/quote]
If I am not mistaken, the "Barrio Chino" in Barcelona is the Red Light District; it might happen that other Spanish cities use the same name for the same districts too, but I do not know for sure. Maybe the text Parrot was referring to was about this particular part of the city.
Anyone who has not heard about the Barrio Chino in Barcelona would not be mistaken to think exactly what you though. ANd I believe that the Parrot's point is exactly this. That it takes... See more [/quote]
If I am not mistaken, the "Barrio Chino" in Barcelona is the Red Light District; it might happen that other Spanish cities use the same name for the same districts too, but I do not know for sure. Maybe the text Parrot was referring to was about this particular part of the city.
Anyone who has not heard about the Barrio Chino in Barcelona would not be mistaken to think exactly what you though. ANd I believe that the Parrot's point is exactly this. That it takes not only a good translator, but also someone who actually knows the subject matter, to make things easier for the proofreader.
Just seen your post and had to reply.
As you say, the Barrio Chino (El Raval) has been historically the Red Light City of Barcelona due to its vicinity to the Port. But it is much more than that. The Barrio Chino used to be very deteriorated and contaminated with prostitution but over the years the area began to undergo a transformation and gradually improved a great deal. It has now evolved into a touristic neighbourhood of Barcelona where vestiges of prostitution still exist but no comparison to what it used to be. The historical aspect of the Barrio Chino (old buildings have been renovated into museums and hotels well worth visiting, Gaudi's first works, etc) and its great variety of cultures and contrasts overshadow the red light side of the Barrio Chino.
The post to which I was replying did not mention the context but if the author was referring to the "Barrio Chino" in Barcelona it would be capitalized whereas the example I was commenting on was not.
I couldn't agree more with you when you say: "That it takes not only a good translator, but also someone who actually knows the subject matter, to make things easier for the proofreader." ▲ Collapse
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