| Stron w wątku: < [1 2 3] | Can one language be better than another? Autor wątku: Wendy Cummings
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P.L.F. Persio 
Holandia
Local time: 21:49
angielski > włoski
+ ...
| Go ahead, make my day | Sep 10, 2024 |
Denis Fesik wrote:
I know, many here are not interested in these things. I could write about a lot of things English handles better than Russian, but that would make another long post and this one is long enough already.
[Редактировалось 2024-09-09 19:19 GMT]
Well, Denis, I for one am interested, whenever you're ready. And any mention of Pushkin and Nabokov makes me forget all of life's cruelty and pettiness.
| | | | | Are Some Languages Better than Others? | Sep 14, 2024 |
There's a book about this called Are Some Languages Better than Others? https://amzn.to/4dZQ6rW
| | | | IrinaN
USA
Local time: 14:49
angielski > rosyjski
+ ...
Nabokov's translation is awful, sorry.
Please find the translation by Babette Deutsch, the one and only:
“My uncle always was respected;
But his grave illness, I confess,
Is more than I could have expected:
A stroke of genius, nothing less.
He offers all a grand example;
But, God, such boredom who would sample?—
Daylong, nightlong, thus to be bid
To sit beside an invalid!
Low cunning must assist devotion
To one w... See more Nabokov's translation is awful, sorry.
Please find the translation by Babette Deutsch, the one and only:
“My uncle always was respected;
But his grave illness, I confess,
Is more than I could have expected:
A stroke of genius, nothing less.
He offers all a grand example;
But, God, such boredom who would sample?—
Daylong, nightlong, thus to be bid
To sit beside an invalid!
Low cunning must assist devotion
To one who is but half-alive:
You smooth his pillow and contrive
Amusement while you mix his potion;
You sigh, and think with furrowed brow—
‘Why can’t the devil take you now?’”
"I've been there also for a while
But found the North is not my style.". ▲ Collapse
| | | | Denis Fesik
Local time: 23:49
angielski > rosyjski
+ ...
| The art of making things easy | Sep 15, 2024 |
P.L.F. Persio wrote:
Well, Denis, I for one am interested, whenever you're ready. And any mention of Pushkin and Nabokov makes me forget all of life's cruelty and pettiness
Thanks for the interest; I guess I should write the post now that I said I can. Most things I have to say about what English can do better have already appeared in my posts. English is excellent at inventing handles for things. It puts together two our three words and makes them sound like a million bucks. There is no way you can guess the meaning of a term of you don't know it but you can always buy a training course and a Stetson-wearing guy will teach it to you. "Shoring" from concrete construction of easy to translate, but what if you have "reshoring," "preshoring," and "backshoring"? I found a way to translate this into Russian, but I can bet a lot of money on the claim that no amount of AI assistance will help you do the same thing. This genius level of term-making is impossible to achieve in Russian (and Russian is very good at word-building, and that's what I had to do when inventing my translations). An English teacher once told me English pronunciation is all about being able to say anything with a cigar in your mouth. This relaxed take on things applies everywhere. While (as someone already mentioned here) English is not precise, it's still a powerhouse of engineering writing. It teaches you the art of putting things into context: when you see the word "spinning," how can you tell that it's referring to a metalworking process? It's amazing how, while commanding a staggering number of words, English makes do with only a handful. Anything English says about money is a song. You can't do this in Russian. A commercial that goes like a bomb in English becomes ridiculous when translated into Russian. English makes some of the best pop songs in the world. We have a lot of good pop music but it all fades to grey when compared to my childhood impressions from hearing "Is there anybo..." I first heard it sung by my father. We had it on a tape, recorded in Iraq back at the time they were building the Haditha Dam and there was no war. Okay, if I keep going, this post will become very long, maybe someone else will want to write something similar.
@Irina: I didn't say Nabokov's translation was good; in fact, I'd disagree with him over the very first line. I only read what he wrote while in Russia and liked it. I forgive him for hating Dostoevsky (and don't forgive certain other haters).
I've been making mistakes in my posts. Sorry everyone who hates sloppy English writing. I never make corrections after a post has been approved
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Denis Fesik
Local time: 23:49
angielski > rosyjski
+ ...
| Joan la pucelle is a witch in Henry VI | Sep 15, 2024 |
It's a "thanks but no thank you" to me based on what I read about her, but it was interesting to read, especially that time when her fiends abandoned her. But wait, are there any spots in that piece that really move you? Yes there are, and they are all about English Talbot, and his son. Or read the St. Crispin's day monologue. Breath-taking. And maybe that's how things are balanced in English (sainthood vs belligerence—am I wrong? good if I am). And then, clowns. Fools and clowns are some of t... See more It's a "thanks but no thank you" to me based on what I read about her, but it was interesting to read, especially that time when her fiends abandoned her. But wait, are there any spots in that piece that really move you? Yes there are, and they are all about English Talbot, and his son. Or read the St. Crispin's day monologue. Breath-taking. And maybe that's how things are balanced in English (sainthood vs belligerence—am I wrong? good if I am). And then, clowns. Fools and clowns are some of the coolest chaps in Shakespeare's writings and their puns are excellent (where would English be without ol' Jack Falstaff and his sack?). I guess in these here days this applies to the UK only; some people may disagree, but I hate American humor, it's often too loud and doesn't know how to be subtle. One thing I particularly hate is toilet humor—and I know it's a popular thing in some countries. Btw, I don't think English humor is superior or inferior to its Russian counterpart, they're just very different
[Редактировалось 2024-09-15 11:32 GMT] ▲ Collapse
| | | | P.L.F. Persio
Holandia
Local time: 21:49
angielski > włoski
+ ...
| Nabokov on translating Pushkin | Sep 15, 2024 |
IrinaN wrote:
Nabokov's translation is awful, sorry.
He said himself that it was extremely pedantic and dull, as he strove to capture “the exact contextual meaning of the original.” He knew what he was doing, he even wrote a self-deprecating poem about it – On Translating Eugene Onegin:
1
What is translation? On a platter
A poet’s pale and glaring head,
A parrot’s screech, a monkey’s chatter,
And profanation of the dead.
The parasites you were so hard on
Are pardoned if I have your pardon,
O, Pushkin, for my stratagem:
I traveled down your secret stem,
And reached the root, and fed upon it;
Then, in a language newly learned,
I grew another stalk and turned
Your stanza patterned on a sonnet,
Into my honest roadside prose—
All thorn, but cousin to your rose.
2
Reflected words can only shiver
Like elongated lights that twist
In the black mirror of a river
Between the city and the mist.
Elusive Pushkin! Persevering,
I still pick up Tatiana's earring,
Still travel with your sullen rake.
I find another man's mistake,
I analyze alliterations
That grace your feasts and haunt the great
Fourth stanza of your Canto Eight.
This is my task—a poet's patience
And scholiastic passion blent:
Dove-droppings on your monument.
| | | | Denis Fesik
Local time: 23:49
angielski > rosyjski
+ ...
| I read portions of Charles Johnston's translation | Sep 15, 2024 |
IrinaN wrote:
My uncle always was respected;
But his grave illness, I confess,
Is more than I could have expected:
A stroke of genius, nothing less.
He offers all a grand example;
But, God, such boredom who would sample?..
Charles Johnston said he read Nabokov and used his translation extensively in his work. It's an interesting read but I found a few spots where, just like I wrote above, things would break down and then get fixed and where English had to be twisted. If Ms Deutsch could keep going like that throughout the book, then wow, it's a hat off. She makes colossal transformations, I wonder how long it took her to complete the oeuvre (people never take it seriously when I say you must make transformations when translating between Russian and English, and that's why both Runglish and Engrussian can get awful; it's a Very Difficult Language Pair, shut up AI advocates). It always depends on who the author is. One Flew over the Cuckoo's Nest is a great book (in my book), but somewhere I have a translation that really rocks (and rolls, at the same time), it gives you as much pleasure as the original. Palahniuk's Fight Club is a boring read, and so is Kormiltsev translation, but the movie is a masterpiece (all personal opinions here).
Re. what I wrote above about Shakespeare. I had a tape with a recording from a Christian festival in America. Songs (including some really nice ones), etc. It featured a monologue about spiritual warfare that combined speeches from Hamlet and Henry V (it began as "To fight, or not to fight"). I learned it by heart and took it at face value at first but some portions of it would puzzle me. When I read the Shakespeare's pieces in question, I realized that the people who borrowed his language for their performance just didn't understand it now that they twisted it like that (... is branded o'er with a warlike cast of thought, and enterprises of great pitch and moment with this regard their troubles turn away and lose the name of action...). Henry's speech is warlike alright, but they didn't manage to breathe a warlike spirit into Hamlet's monologue. It doesn't mean that they didn't twist St. Crispin's. I could roast the **** out of that performance but don't have the tape anymore and forgot a lot
[Редактировалось 2024-09-16 19:09 GMT]
| | | | Kay Denney
Francja
Local time: 21:49
francuski > angielski
| sorry to nitpick but | Sep 19, 2024 |
Denis Fesik wrote:
I'm confident that each of them took great talent and effort to produce, but the English text had to be stretched and twisted in many spots where Pushkin's language came as an intense but completely effortless poetic flow
... hm reminds me of my favourite client who said something about how I translate her texts effortlessly into much more elegant prose in English.
She's a lovely woman, but she's very wrong. It's not more elegant, it's just a bit shorter and sweeter. Pithy, one might say. And after the blood sweat and tears involved in understanding then translating her complex high-brow prose... to call it effortless! It's wonderful if it comes across as effortless, but it's closer to agonising.
Her praise does make it all worthwhile even if she's misguided.
In short, I would like to replace the word "completely" with "seemingly" in your otherwise fascinating analysis.
[Edited at 2024-09-19 13:57 GMT]
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Denis Fesik
Local time: 23:49
angielski > rosyjski
+ ...
| Or use "across" after my "came"? | Sep 19, 2024 |
Kay Denney wrote:
It's wonderful if it comes across as effortless, but it's closer to agonising.
Her praise does make it all worthwhile even if she's misguided.
In short, I would like to replace the word "completely" with "seemingly" in your otherwise fascinating analysis
Would that be equivalent? Thank you for the correction. I think that post contains actual language mistakes too, but I don't ususally check my forum writings as thoroughly as I check my translations
Re. what I wrote above about English inventing handles for things but you have to be in the know to understand them. Can anyone who's a good prompter invent some prompts that will make ChatGPT or a similar bot whip out a correct translation for "simple design" as used in BS 05950-1? I can give a correct translation into Russian but no dictionaries I know of contain that translation. Just encountered it in my work. I think it's a good illustration
[Редактировалось 2024-09-19 16:13 GMT]
| | | | IrinaN
USA
Local time: 14:49
angielski > rosyjski
+ ...
| I’ve abandoned the thread for a while | Sep 21, 2024 |
All crazy work and now I’m in Ireland for 10 days, meeting my Ukrainian colleague and friend. About the book - I was pacing back and forth in my condo reading aloud in excitement, when I discovered it. She even managed брусничную воду! Denis, I’d love to send you more quotes later, privately, if you wish. It is available on Amazon but I know… Can bring one to SPb, I go over there every year:-) You are welcome to contact me privately.
| | | | Maria Andrso (X)
Palestyna
arabski > angielski
| Is There a "Best" Language? | Sep 26, 2024 |
I enjoyed a lot reading all these views about this topic. In my view, since all languages perform the same function it is unlikly that any language will be considered as the best.
[Edited at 2024-09-27 11:29 GMT]
| | | | Zea_Mays
Włochy
Local time: 21:49
angielski > niemiecki
+ ...
| ↑ Does ProZ use AI to vet posts and users? ↑ | Sep 27, 2024 |
Just asking.
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