| Stron w wątku: < [1 2 3 4] | Would you offer translation reviews for free to an agency? Autor wątku: apk12
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apk12 
Niemcy
Local time: 18:11
angielski > niemiecki
+ ...
NOWY TEMAT | Sorry for freshing up this old thread, but... | Jun 3, 2011 |
Gosh, folks, please forgive me for freshing up this old thread (we'll see this thread's first birthday soon), and of course this refresh happened absolutely coincidentally.
So, while glimpsing at this old thread recently, I spotted a sentence that simply seem to still wait for a comment, patiently. So please let me post this late comment herewith.
Samuel Murray wrote: (...) 1. you have a company expecting you to deliver LSP service for free
2. review as a pay-back for an allocated project instead of a participation in the run for 'review points'
3. no possiblity for a discussion in cases such a discussion is needed
4. a clear top-down structure (...) 4. I'm not sure what "top-down structure" means here, but if it refers to the hierarchy of authority and decision-making, then I have no objection. Very few businesses are run democratically.
Sure, Samuel, in a company, right. But I thought we are talking not about an employer/employee-relationship here but about a relation that links us forum users here somehow - about the outsourcer/freelancer-relationship which, as I thought until now, among other characteristics has this nice feature of running differently than with a hierarchical top-down-structure. That's why I am still not really ready with this work-for-free-if-you-want-to-earn-topic here. If a company wants to "run" top-down with their translators, no problem. But first, I think, it has to pay them social insurance, paid holidays and a few other expenses before they can start with it. But demanding work for free + top-down desision taking process while working with freelancers (expected professionals)? C'mon...
[Edited at 2011-06-03 20:36 GMT]
| | | | | I recently saw a link to this thread as I was reading another one... | May 23, 2012 |
... and it seems to be forever up to date, so let´s fresh it up. First of all: No, I haven´t and I wouldn´t even if it means losing the client. I haven´t read the whole thread so I am not sure if my experience suits here. However, let me share it with you.
Long time ago I translated a project for an agency for which I had occasionally translated other projects in the past. The PM sent me a TM along with the document. Although they wanted discounts for fuzzy matches etc., the agr... See more ... and it seems to be forever up to date, so let´s fresh it up. First of all: No, I haven´t and I wouldn´t even if it means losing the client. I haven´t read the whole thread so I am not sure if my experience suits here. However, let me share it with you.
Long time ago I translated a project for an agency for which I had occasionally translated other projects in the past. The PM sent me a TM along with the document. Although they wanted discounts for fuzzy matches etc., the agreed payment for this project was ok. Before accepting the order I noticed that there were A LOT of 100% matches in the document, so I told the PM that I would charge my proofreading rate for these segments, otherwise I would not touch, not even read them and I would of course not be responsible for possible inconsistencies, grammar or typing errors in them. But the agency didn´t want to pay for 100% matches so the PM consulted a colleague and told me later that I should not read these segments and I should just leave them as they were. That was fine with me since I am not willing to do work for free. I delivered the translation, got paid in time, everything looked well.
6 months later (in words: SIX) another PM of the same agency contacted me saying that the end client would like to have some corrections implemented and the agency wanted me to do this review/editing. I answered that I would be very happy to do the job at a rate of “X”. Then the PM was somewhat surprised and upset that I wanted to charge them for implementing these changes since it was my own translation, and he told me that they usually got the documents corrected from other translators for free. I thought: “What? Ok, maybe there is a misunderstanding” and wrote back telling them:
- That I – of course – usually correct my own mistakes for free IF they are reported within a reasonable time frame (30 days max. or until the invoice is paid, after that I consider my work as accepted).
- That I, however, would make an exception as a sign of goodwill IF I really made mistakes, although 6 months had passed. For that I would need them to point *my own* mistakes in detail, because all I had seen so far were the mistakes that contained the unpaid and unread 100% segments, which were not part of the initial deal.
- That I would charge my review/editing rate IF the work meant making style changes or other changes related to preferred terminology that wasn´t told to me before beginning with the translation. If they had told me, I had used the preferred terminology, but I got no specifications other than the TM – which I leant on –, so this would be just another job that had to be paid separately.
- That I also would charge my review/editing rate if they wanted me to correct the mistakes in the 100% segments, since I already offered this 6 months ago and they refused to pay for it and explicit told me not to touch them. Alternatively they could kindly ask the translator of this segments Mr./Mrs. “XX” to correct his/her own mistakes, since his/her surname was visible on each and every one of the segments.
In the end it turned out that I didn´t make any mistakes in the segments I translated, they only wanted me to correct the errors in the 100% matches for free, since they were “only a few and it probably would not cost me much time”. I refused; it would have taken 2-3 hours of my time, a time during which I would not have been able to make any other paid work. The PM was obviously not happy with my attitude, but that´s how it is. He told me that he understands my point of view and that he would look for another solution; maybe he continued asking translators until he found someone willing to work for free.
Several months have passed since then and I haven´t heard anything from this agency again, so I guess I lost them completely as a client, but I don´t really care. I am thankful that it happened since I learnt something very important that had not been necessary so far until this issue raised: to specify all my future clients that I would consider my work as accepted once the job is paid or after 30 days max.
I am currently working on my own website (which will go online in a few days) and this is one of the important things that I definitely will point out in my terms & conditions. Well, this whole conversation took place in German, I don´t work with English so I hope I was able to transfer the message in this posting properly into English.
What do you think? What would you have done in my situation? I´m pretty confident with what I did but I´m just curious about what your reaction would have been.
[Edited at 2012-05-23 09:07 GMT] ▲ Collapse
| | | | apk12
Niemcy
Local time: 18:11
angielski > niemiecki
+ ...
NOWY TEMAT
Nani Delgado wrote: What do you think? What would you have done in my situation? I´m pretty confident with what I did but I´m just curious about what your reaction would have been.
Basically, I absolutely do hope and think (and so far have many reasons to do so) that my reaction would have been very comparable. (With the exception of being able to name them Mr./Ms. XX as the person they should address since so far, miraculously, I have been able to survive and stick to my guns without being forced to fund a certain software company in order to comply with certain agencies' expectations regarding fuzzy discounts and deliveries of my very own TM aka experience, which, btw, also sets me free from posting in the CAT bug section here, a fact I am quite glad about :] )
A few points regarding that topic (your case)
apart of the fact that they came back with requests to edit or correct what had nothing to do with your own deliverable:
- do you think the agency really offered the client the editing for free after that long time?
- in case yes: would you call that professional behaviour and, as a consequence, a client you could expect interesting projects in future, coming with decent rates?
- in case no: what do you think makes certain PMs believe that the basic duty, task and job of a translator is to take care for the agency's profit growth? (interests earned on delayed payments, the rates they are trying to press down and down even further, while the clients expect professional services for the rates that are offered to t-h-e-m... etc etc)
[Edited at 2012-05-23 09:31 GMT]
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Once a task has been invoiced, the following task is a NEW task and therefore a NEW quote for prices. So I'd stuck to my guns. Especially 6 months later.
Another example: I was asked to do a huge alignment, did it and sent it back. Technical task, they didn't ask for quality control, so I just aligned. Then this was followed by a translation request of new stuff for the same manual. A fortnight later the same agency came back, quite upset, why didn't you rework the whole manual? ... See more Once a task has been invoiced, the following task is a NEW task and therefore a NEW quote for prices. So I'd stuck to my guns. Especially 6 months later.
Another example: I was asked to do a huge alignment, did it and sent it back. Technical task, they didn't ask for quality control, so I just aligned. Then this was followed by a translation request of new stuff for the same manual. A fortnight later the same agency came back, quite upset, why didn't you rework the whole manual?
Error of both parties here: we both took the aligned segments for 'validated by the end client'. I lost the client. ▲ Collapse
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| I don´t know... | May 23, 2012 |
apk12 wrote:
- do you think the agency really offered the client the editing for free after that long time?
Well, at least that´s what they told me since “it is a very good and long term client that expects corrections to be made for free when there are quality issues”. I don´t know if this is true but the funny thing is that, when I asked them to please notify me next time within the previously mentioned reasonable time frame if I ever should cause quality issues, the PM answered that this would be a general problem because it takes that long to the client to review and update his documents, so he could not assure that the agency would be ever able to report possible quality issues within a month. But that´s not my problem, is it? If the client is not able to act in an organised manner, I am really not inclined to translate his documents.
apk12 wrote:- in case yes: would you call that professional behaviour and, as a consequence, a client you could expect interesting projects in future, coming with decent rates?
The projects were always interesting, that was never an issue for me, but in case it was that way, I don´t consider it to be professional. The agency should tell the end client to behave more professional himself and to achieve a better organisation in order to allow a proper team work. If they don´t, they should not expect to get top work for free.
apk12 wrote:- in case no: what do you think makes certain PMs believe that the basic duty, task and job of a translator is to take care for the agency's profit growth? (interests earned on delayed payments, the rates they are trying to press down and down even further, while the clients expect professional services for the rates that are offered to t-h-e-m... etc etc)
I really have no idea but I am sure that I never gave them reason to believe that I was willing to help them keeping this “very good and long term client” just by kindly asking me to do this for free, and by no means at all if they contact me many months later.
| | | | apk12
Niemcy
Local time: 18:11
angielski > niemiecki
+ ...
NOWY TEMAT | For requests that | May 23, 2012 |
Nani Delgado wrote:
I really have no idea but I am sure that I never gave them reason to believe that I was willing to help them keeping this “very good and long term client” just by kindly asking me to do this for free, and by no means at all if they contact me many months later.
With requests that, in addition, have -no-thing- to do with your own deliverable.
Do you think they managed to contact Mr./Mrs. XX?
It's possible that Mr./Mrs. XX told them that the discounts were so generous that unfortunately Mr./Mrs. XX is also not able to offer free additional work months later, being currently busy with delivering the next discounts, so there might be a point when even Mr./Mrs XX who would usually may have been even inclined to correct her/his own segments, says that this would have been the case if there wouldn't have been discounts requested.
Do you think you were the first or the second one contacted?
Sure, as they phrased it, it was a phrasing claiming that they have overlooked that you were not the person working on those segments - but this is the phrasing in the email.
[Edited at 2012-05-23 10:21 GMT]
| | | | | I have to admit... | May 23, 2012 |
apk12 wrote:
Do you think you were the first or the second one contacted?
I have to admit that referring to Mr./Mrs. XX was a bit sarcastic from me. I think I was the first one contacted because this segments were nearly 4 years old! *LOL* Sorry to hear that they possibly were publishing wrong manuals for almost 4 years but THAT is even one more reason for the end client and the agency to properly invest in their businesses instead of searching for monkeys. By now they surely don´t work with Mr./Mrs. XX anymore but I won´t fix their errors for free. Sadly it is very likely that they found somebody who did.
apk12 wrote:
Sure, as they phrased it, it was a phrasing claiming that they have overseen that you were not the person working on those segments - but this is the phrasing in the email.
I thought of that possibility and it is very likely that they didn´t notice at first that I wasn´t the translator who made mistakes; I want to believe that it was not a deliberate attempt to... let´s say to take advantage of me; if they oversaw that, so be it. I offered them everything I could offer but the PM continued insisting on me to please help them out for free even after having explained to him all the things that I told in my first posting. *That* is what I didn´t like at all.
| | | | apk12
Niemcy
Local time: 18:11
angielski > niemiecki
+ ...
NOWY TEMAT | So, basically... | May 23, 2012 |
Nani Delgado wrote:
I have to admit that referring to Mr./Mrs. XX was a bit sarcastic from me. I think I was the first one contacted because this segments were nearly 4 years old! *LOL* Sorry to hear that they possibly were publishing wrong manuals for almost 4 years but THAT is even one more reason for the end client and the agency to properly invest in their businesses instead of searching for monkeys. By now they surely don´t work with Mr./Mrs. XX anymore but I won´t fix their errors for free. Sadly it is very likely that they found somebody who did.
So, basically, we are talking about an agency that, while claiming that they want to keep a client, is not willing to spend the additional amount that this takes when they want to correct the results of their own mismanagement years before.
You say you think they found someone willing to do that.
Take a look at this entire thread here - there seem to be a lot of people in the market not that much interested in delivering such erm - 'services'.
Do you keep fingers crossed for them that this Mr./Mrs. XY, willing to correct mistakes by someone else years before for free, turns out to be better than Mr./Mrs. XX, indeed helping them to keep this client?
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DLyons
Irlandia
Local time: 17:11
hiszpański > angielski
+ ...
| It's a customer relations issue. | May 23, 2012 |
Nani Delgado wrote:
... they only wanted me to correct the errors in the 100% matches for free, since they were “only a few and it probably would not cost me much time”. I refused; it would have taken 2-3 hours of my time ... The PM was obviously not happy with my attitude, but that´s how it is.
Several months have passed since then and I haven´t heard anything from this agency again, so I guess I lost them completely as a client ... I learnt something very important that had not been necessary so far until this issue raised: to specify all my future clients that I would consider my work as accepted once the job is paid or after 30 days max.
[Edited at 2012-05-23 09:07 GMT]
They asked you to do an unpaid piece of work which both of you agreed was outside the original terms of the job. They are entitled to ask, you are entitled to refuse.
1) It appears that an investment of 3hrs in customer relations might have kept what seems generally to have been quite a reasonable customer. That's a business decision, it's not right or wrong as such - one weighs the pros and cons, makes a decision and learns from the outcome.
2) Specifying that "work as accepted once the job is paid or after 30 days max" can certainly be included in your terms and conditions. It will however cause problems for many real-world clients, so I suspect they will either ignore it or, if they are very conscientious, find someone who doesn't have such a clause.
Clients appreciate, and often need, flexibility. That's not to say you will always be able meet their every request, whether for free or on a paid basis!
[Edited at 2012-05-23 11:33 GMT]
| | | | apk12
Niemcy
Local time: 18:11
angielski > niemiecki
+ ...
NOWY TEMAT | Whether or not? | May 23, 2012 |
DLyons wrote:
That's not to say you will always be able meet their every request, whether for free or on a paid basis!
"Whether or not"? I would say this is quite relevant for this topic.
"It appears that an investment of 3hrs in customer relations might have kept what seems generally to have been quite a reasonable customer. That's a business decision,
it's not right or wrong as such"
Yes, but for whom? For the agency, spending additional 3 hours would have been a reasonable option, isn't it?
Spending 3 hours on work for free while correcting errors in segments that were done by an other translator - excuse me? Is this my end client? No, my client is in such a case just another agency who is trying to save necessary expenses on my very own back.
The direct client coming back with a late correction request -or- the agency that is requesting a late editing for an own delivery might cause a different reaction: in the first case definitely a different one (quite probably this would start a detailed discussion regarding the term/expression change requested and the detailed explanation why exactly I still advise to use the one I delivered... it would depend on the case in question but the talk definitely would start), in the second case, in the case of an agency coming back with such a late request referring to my very own work, this would depend on their reliability (how many regular offers for what rate do I get from them, what does this mean for the reliability of their next offer regarding this client - will it land on my desk? Do I have reasons to expect that? Depending on such questions, the negotiation of the second case would probably start (which means only that a negotiation would start, the result of it left open in a post discussing that in theory).
But - errors of an other translator? For free? For an agency?
No way.
[Edited at 2012-05-23 11:51 GMT]
| | | | DLyons
Irlandia
Local time: 17:11
hiszpański > angielski
+ ...
| Re: Whether or not? | May 23, 2012 |
apk12 wrote:
Spending 3 hours on work for free while correcting errors in segments that were done by an other translator - excuse me? Is this my end client? No, my client is in such a case just another agency who is trying to save necessary expenses on my very own back.
...
But - errors of an other translator? For free? For an agency?
No way.
[Edited at 2012-05-23 11:51 GMT]
They have asked for something for free - it's your choice whether you give it to them. The issue can be considered in essentially legalistic terms, or alternatively in customer / interpersonal relations terms.
Which you choose is entirely up to you; both have consequences.
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christela wrote:
Once a task has been invoiced, the following task is a NEW task and therefore a NEW quote for prices. So I'd stuck to my guns. Especially 6 months later.
That´s how I see it too, christela.
apk12 wrote:
So, basically, we are talking about an agency that, while claiming that they want to keep a client, is not willing to spend the additional amount that this takes when they want to correct the results of their own mismanagement years before.
Yep. Maybe it could also have been the mismanagement of the end client himself. It is possible that this translation was performed by Mr./Mrs. XX through another agency, and that the agency I worked with began to work for the end client maybe 3 years ago. Oh, this is getting complicated for me to express in English, sorry for that. 
Anyway, they both know now that there are errors in the manual and they want them fixed. I don´t know who is not willing to pay for that but someone here was trying to get advantage of someone. If it was the client and the agency was willing to do that, it should be at their own cost and not at the cost of any translator. And if the agency was getting paid for that and even so was searching for someone to do the work for free to increase their profit, well... no coment. 
apk12 wrote:
Take a look at this entire thread here - there seem to be a lot of people in the market not that much interested in delivering such erm - 'services'.
And I am happy to see it. I only wonder how many translators don´t say anything and are much too afraid of losing a client so they don´t dare to refuse such "kind offers" like the one I was asked to do, since this kind of offers don´t seem to disappear at all. Why? Maybe because some other translators fall for it while they are hoping to get more jobs because of their "goodwill"? Who knows... That is the reason why I decided to share this experience today although it´s a bit difficult for me. Like others in this thread, I also say "no" to unprofessional practices; I also know what my work is worth and sometimes it´s just preferably to lose a client like that.
DLyons wrote:
They asked you to do an unpaid piece of work which both of you agreed was outside the original terms of the job.
Oh, they never admitted that, they originally counted on me to do it “of course for free like all the other translators we work with”. Until today I don´t really know if they really oversaw that it was not me who made the mistakes or if they just wanted me to fix the manual because I had already worked on that specific file, but I am only thinking positive.
DLyons wrote:
1) It appears that an investment of 3hrs in customer relations might have kept what seems generally to have been quite a reasonable customer. That's a business decision, it's not right or wrong as such - one weighs the pros and cons, makes a decision and learns from the outcome.
I am not saying that I would never go that extra mile for a good client. Indeed I actually do but only for a few really good clients - good in every aspect. This agency sent me only occasional assignments, they were not any special at all, and they also don´t seem to be that reasonable if they expect me to fix some other translators work for free, so no: I rather spend 3 hours in the forum discussing their mismanagement than giving them 3 hours of my time for free and not hearing from them at all in months. That was my business decision and I really don´t regret it. Also, I am usually much too busy to give 2 or 3 hours of my time to occasional customers for free.
DLyons wrote:
2) Specifying that "work as accepted once the job is paid or after 30 days max" can certainly be included in your terms and conditions. It will however cause problems for many real-world clients, so I suspect they will either ignore it or, if they are very conscientious, find someone who doesn't have such a clause.
Anyone is free to propose a different time frame when contacting me; maybe I could agree to it, everything is relative. But come on, 6 months?? That´s a bit too much of flexibility.
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apk12
Niemcy
Local time: 18:11
angielski > niemiecki
+ ...
NOWY TEMAT | again apologizing for warming this old topic up, but... | Oct 28, 2013 |
again apologizing for warming this old topic up, but... there are news, dear colleagues.
Interesting news.
| | | | | Stron w wątku: < [1 2 3 4] | To report site rules violations or get help, contact a site moderator: You can also contact site staff by submitting a support request » Would you offer translation reviews for free to an agency? | Trados Business Manager Lite | Create customer quotes and invoices from within Trados Studio
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