| Stron w wątku: < [1 2 3 4 5 6] > | 7th ProZ.com Translation Contest: announcement of winners! Autor wątku: RominaZ
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Terry Gilman 
Niemcy
Local time: 07:50
Członek ProZ.com
od 2003
niemiecki > angielski
+ ...
| With Romina, but improve the process | Jul 7, 2008 |
I really support this innovation, have just been too busy to invest the time but do want to support Romina in continuing the contests. Like others, from what I have seen, I would support a more KudoZ-like approach - with agrees and disagrees (or likes and dislikes) being named not anonymous and allowing at least a line or two (250 characters?) of commentary. Thanks, Terry
| | | | | now that the voting is over | Jul 8, 2008 |
Hi Romina
Now that the voting is over, and for the purpose of general clarification and understanding, can all the posts that had been hidden during the past few days be revealed again? Two of my posts were hidden and so Paola's.
Thanks
Liliana
[Edited at 2008-07-08 21:22]
| | | | | Nice summary of suggestions from Pauley | Jul 9, 2008 |
Pauley wrote:
My view is that a) only L2 native speakers should be eligible for entry in any given pair (a bit like our profession, when, as a general rule, we only translate into our own language); b) only mothertongue speakers can vote for the L2 in question...; c) voters should not be anonymous and, finally, d) voters should attach a small statement to back-up their choice.
Pauley has summed it up well here.
| | | | | I cannot agree with (a) | Jul 9, 2008 |
Scott Alexander wrote:
Pauley wrote:
My view is that a) only L2 native speakers should be eligible for entry in any given pair (a bit like our profession, when, as a general rule, we only translate into our own language);
Pauley has summed it up well here.
I cannot agree with (a).
For example, personally you, Scott, you said you read my entry in RU-EN.
Do you think it was not worth participation?
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Paola Dentifrigi
Włochy
Local time: 07:50
Członek ProZ.com
od 2003
angielski > włoski
+ ...
| I agree with Liliana | Jul 9, 2008 |
I'd like to know on which basis a text that does not sound Italian was voted.
Kind regards,
Paola
| | | | | Thanks for the feedback! | Jul 10, 2008 |
Hi all,
Thanks for participating in the contests and thanks for the feedback here.
Romina and I have analyzed some of the contest data. The impression we get is that while the "selection" process is still not where we would like it to be, the qualification and voting approach introduced in contest 7 resulted in a clear improvement over the previous approach. Do you all agree?
We also believe that significant further improvement could be made to the current ... See more Hi all,
Thanks for participating in the contests and thanks for the feedback here.
Romina and I have analyzed some of the contest data. The impression we get is that while the "selection" process is still not where we would like it to be, the qualification and voting approach introduced in contest 7 resulted in a clear improvement over the previous approach. Do you all agree?
We also believe that significant further improvement could be made to the current approach by implementing some of the suggestions made in this thread, in particular those related to improved communication and transparency. Do you all agree?
If so, we will plan on going into the "annual contest" with a more "open" version of the current approach. ▲ Collapse
| | | | | quality of writing | Jul 10, 2008 |
Dear Henry,
it is good to see that Romina and you are considering our feedback. We all realised that lack of transparency can lead to negative feelings. However, in my view the second main problem lies in the general ability of the voters to evaluate a literary text and in the difficulty for all contestants to achieve good results in translating literature; I certainly found the task more challenging than I thought! Now, one needs to know Maths well if he wants to mark an algebra... See more Dear Henry,
it is good to see that Romina and you are considering our feedback. We all realised that lack of transparency can lead to negative feelings. However, in my view the second main problem lies in the general ability of the voters to evaluate a literary text and in the difficulty for all contestants to achieve good results in translating literature; I certainly found the task more challenging than I thought! Now, one needs to know Maths well if he wants to mark an algebra problem. Similarly, you need to know the structure of a language in order to be able to make a sound judgement. To illustrate my point I refer to the winning translation in the EN/IT pair. While the author might be the nicest person in the world, the last paragraph of her translation is poorly written. The original text goes:
It was only a qualified victory, however. You'd see the winner, exhausted, barely able to wave to the crowd. The triumph was mainly one of survival.
The translation goes:
Si vedrebbe il vincitore, esausto, capace a malapena di fare un gesto di saluto alla folla. Trionfare significherebbe puramente sopravvivere.
While in English you can use “you'd see” whether referring to a present or past action, ( “si vedrebbe” in Italian ) in Italian you are supposed to use the conditional manner in the past, or compound, form. This is because, differently from English, there are more variations in the use of the manners or moods, ( moods indicate how the action happens).
From an Italian lesson on the web I paste what follows:
In Italian there are seven manners or moods with different forms and functions: indicativo (indicative), congiuntivo (subjunctive), condizionale (conditional), imperativo (imperative), infinito (infinitive), gerundio (gerund), participio (participle).
In Italian there are many different times: all the seven manners of the verb have different times.
The times can be simple (only one word) or compound (two or more words).
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The correct way of writing should have been “si sarebbe visto il vincitore”, , for the last sentence, “avrebbe significato” instaed of “significherebbe” and “sarebbe stata” instead of “sarebbe” at the start of the paragraph.
The compound form of the conditional mood indicates that the action took place in the past but after the main actio ( in this case the wresting match itself) , in the future of the past, that is.
From wikipedia:
... il condizionale passato è anche la forma più adatta ad indicare il futuro nel passato ( the past conditional is the most suitable way to indicate future in the past)
... il condizionale passato indica un'eventualità la cui realizzazione non è più possibile al momento dell'enunciazione. ( the past conditional mood indicates an aventuality which is not possible anymore at the time of the enunciation)
La differenza tra il condizionale presente ed il condizionale passato viene illustrata...seguendo criteri temporali. (The difference between present and past conditional is explained ...following time criteria)
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In conclusion, the way the contestant wrote the paragraph leads the reader to think that he/she is watching the wrestling and “would see” the winner barely able to wave to the crowd,. It was, instead, the parents' author who watched and saw, before they “would see the winner”, which n Italian should be “would HAVE SEEN the winner ).
I wrote all of this to tell you that if Yuri, Angio, Liliana, Paola and others claim that we are far from the excellence in translating originally hoped for, there is truth behind our words. That is why some of us suggest external judges, at least in the first round. If this is not feasable please just tell us. Languages are delicate creatures in my opinion, one word can damage a sentence and one sentence can turn a good paragraph into something unpleasant and irritating to read. Translating literature and evaluating translations of this genre is more complex than doing the same with technical textes, and requires a specific experience in the field.
Ciao ciao
[Modificato alle 2008-07-10 19:44] ▲ Collapse
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Not going into the depths of Russian grammar and style, I will just repeat what I had said after one of the previous contests:
'The best' is superlative. 'Better' — comparative. 'Good' — positive.
How can a translation be best, if it isn't even good?
This time in the En-Ru pair I could only vote for one translation (the winner's). No 2nd, nor 3rd p... See more Not going into the depths of Russian grammar and style, I will just repeat what I had said after one of the previous contests:
'The best' is superlative. 'Better' — comparative. 'Good' — positive.
How can a translation be best, if it isn't even good?
This time in the En-Ru pair I could only vote for one translation (the winner's). No 2nd, nor 3rd place. The reason... It was enough to read just the beginning and the end of all the variants left. It's not natural Russian. Forgive me, but those are nothing more than awkward attempts to convey the meaning of the original text. The translators struggle for words. And the words win in the struggle, not the translators
One more thing. The grades in the qualification round were real fun. Mine was 2.04. OK. You need to tell my clients they stop paying a loser who cannot even get a 3 out of 5. You need to take away my diploma. It is fake! You cannot call someone a translator if he can hardly get a 2 in a couple paragraph translation.
But, OK. 'Let them hate me, hit me, hurt me, nail me...' But then I find out that another translator whom I know for good quality translations (sent him some jobs and checked them afterwards) and who has won several contests by now, has got the same sacramental two (with other fractions).
I wonder, what was the grade needed for going into the finals. 2.23? 2.37?
You can call it whatever, but this shame isn't worthy of the name of fair assessment.
Either transparency or the participants cannot vote against their competitiors.
But I still believe that without the panel we'll never have a good contest. It will always be lame. Anonymous amateurs in masks cannot be referees in sports competitions. You need to prove your qualification and impartiality to be given the whistle.
[Edited at 2008-07-10 17:46] ▲ Collapse
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Paola Dentifrigi
Włochy
Local time: 07:50
Członek ProZ.com
od 2003
angielski > włoski
+ ...
I agree with unadiluna's point.
I wish I could analyze the RO>IT test the same way she did.
The trouble is it does not sound Italian at all
For those who read Italian, to name but a few weird sentences:
nonostante possiedo solo l’educazione ricevuta in casa
fallire ancora uno dei sogni della mia vita
me lo nutre e me lo giustifica in tutta la sua puerilità.
siccome da piccolo avevo l’unico desiderio di raccontare al mondo come si gio... See more I agree with unadiluna's point.
I wish I could analyze the RO>IT test the same way she did.
The trouble is it does not sound Italian at all
For those who read Italian, to name but a few weird sentences:
nonostante possiedo solo l’educazione ricevuta in casa
fallire ancora uno dei sogni della mia vita
me lo nutre e me lo giustifica in tutta la sua puerilità.
siccome da piccolo avevo l’unico desiderio di raccontare al mondo come si gioca il foot-ball.
I'll stop here. It's more than enough. No one qualified, sorry.
Paola ▲ Collapse
| | | | Paola Dentifrigi
Włochy
Local time: 07:50
Członek ProZ.com
od 2003
angielski > włoski
+ ...
| Good point, Yuri! | Jul 10, 2008 |
Yuri Smirnov wrote:
'The best' is superlative. 'Better' — comparative. 'Good' — positive.
How can a translation be best, if it isn't even good?
And if it is far from being good?
Paola
[Edited at 2008-07-11 15:31]
| | | | patyjs
Meksyk
Local time: 00:50
hiszpański > angielski
+ ...
| Qualification round grades? | Jul 10, 2008 |
Yuri said:
One more thing. The grades in the qualification round were real fun. Mine was 2.04. OK.
How did you find out your grades? Do tell.
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| They were shown | Jul 10, 2008 |
They were shown for those who didn't qualify.
| | | | patyjs
Meksyk
Local time: 00:50
hiszpański > angielski
+ ...
| Sorry, Yuri, where? | Jul 10, 2008 |
I entered the Spanish to English contest and didn't qualify but I can't see where to find the grades.
| | | | | It was seen for some time | Jul 10, 2008 |
It was seen for some time after the finalists were chosen. The 'some time' was very short.
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